Anne Marie Slaughter's cover article "Why Women Still Can't Have it All" is generating lots of buzz. I'm writing about Elizabeth Wurtzel's and Slaughter's articles right now. Tell me what you think.
34 thoughts on “Women and Work”
Comments are closed.
Apt. 11d 
As a young(ish, I’m 34) woman with kids and a professional career I don’t feel like I can relate to Slaughter’s article. Maybe relate is the wrong word, more that I think her sense of the taboo of talking about your children in professional circles is outdated. That is just not an issue for any of the professional moms I know that are around my age. And maybe that hasn’t filtered up to the absolute highest levels but my guess is that in the next five to ten years when the current crop of young professional moms moves up to those positions they’ll be so used to environments where they talk freely about their kids that they won’t even think twice about it.
My boss is someone who by all standards has made it. Not to Slaughter’s level, but still, she’s very successful: she travels, gets paid very well, and does important work. She also has absolutely no problem leaving the office early and saying it’s because she’s chaperoning her child’s field trip.
I have another friend who has a high-level job at a medical device company. She travels a ton, makes great money, and is poised to move further up in her company. She also has a blog about her family, shares pictures of kid on Facebook where she is friends with her superiors, and works from home one day a week because she likes that flexibility. No one thinks less of here because of it.
So, I think it’s very generational and that things have changed quite a bit over a short amount of time. One thing I always go back to is that, if women are really outpacing men in college graduation rates then we’re going to have more women in professional roles than men in the near future. Professional women as a group have a lot of power and employers will have to, and are already are, adapting to that.
LikeLike
I loved this article! It’s about time someone took the time to write it. I think as a society our family values (spend every second focusing on your children!) and work expectations (12 hour days aren’t enough!) are at odds, and I’ve always been so frustrated that powerful, successful people have never acknowledged it.
As a postdoc with 2 kids under 5, I have learned that it’s wiser to never mention the children, lest anyone suggest that you aren’t working on Science 24/7. However, among my closest colleagues and especially my trainees I am very explicit, as I believe that it’s important that people understand that there are always choices to be made.
Lastly, as a practical point, I had no idea the teenage years could require so much effort. Good to know. Also, if academia is the ‘more flexible’ lifestyle choice, then I’m thanking my lucky stars I didn’t go into politics!
LikeLike
As long as my employer is a bit flexible, my partner is around and supportive, and my kids are doing fine, I’m okay with Good Enough worker, Good Enough mom.
If something hits a big bump though – my job gets tense or I start to slide; my child has a special need or develops an aversion to school – then _as a woman_ I think it’s more likely that I’ll jump ship on the career.
Partly this is because _someone_ has to – once you have kids failure is not really an option; if your job means the difference between eating and not of course you can’t quit it.
But assuming there is choice, it is often the woman’s job which pays less. Women are still first judged on kids/home/green culture and so I think there is a tendency to opt out then. (I have a huge rant in my head about why is it that women are staying home to source organic and make their own pickles so that there aren’t toxins in the family foodstream…new morality isn’t that God wants you to stay home; it’s the environment. This is not original to me; Jody at Raising WEG made a comment that got me thinking about it.)
And who am I to say it doesn’t work? Except, of course, if that woman ends up divorced or widowed or any other economic terrible thing goes on. And why is it again that women tend to be making less than men in the high-powered jobs, still?
I agree with a lot of the Atlantic piece’s identification of the problems but I’m not sure work flexibility is the only answer; I think there is a need to really, really consider what it is we think our kids need and why society at large is pushing that back on the family, cutting special ed, gifted ed, building communities where kids need adult support to get to activities — lack of transit etc.
Then there’s the issue that in my generation, a lot of the people who might be willing to take care of our kids — i.e. the grandmothers — are off spending their inheritance in great health in India or still succeeding professionally themselves. Until they fall off a health cliff and the caregiving falls to…us.
LikeLike
I think this is where the Scandinavian model works better than hours does, by incentivizing/forcing people of all genders to have a work/life balance. I think that there’s also truth that more hours on the job doesn’t usually equal more productive hours, the case that Greeks work far more hours than Germans, but Germany has higher productivity (as do the Nordic countries) than Greece. At some point, human biology wins out, and exhausted overworked unhappy workers are simply not as productive.
I also think there’s a really lack of commitment to happiness in the US, which I blame on our Puritan heritage. I think there’s still a strong implicit notion that ‘that idle hands make the devils work,’ and so people who aren’t spending all their waking hours doing something productive are suspect. Until we change that (hopefully it’s possible), we’ll look askance at anyone of any gender who wants work/life balance in any really meaningful way. Now, I think we’re going backwards, as people who make any work place demands (like, healthcare, pensions, vacation time, livable wage), are told they’re whiny privileged assholes who should just be happy they have a job.
LikeLike
I found the article interesting — because my sense was always that Anne-Marie Slaughter was rather privileged. She comes from an academic family herself, and in one of her books she thanks the couple that lives in and helps her raise her family (man and woman; nanny/housekeeper and something else). I’m afraid I had been under the impression that she had more or less outsourced the child raising to someone else. (Kind of like Madeline Albright, who also had a small staff tending to her children while she finished her dissertation. Her husband was some kind of publishing magnate).
This article made me stop and think. “Wow, if someone like this can’t make it work, who can?” It also reminded me a piece in some women’s magazine last year about 3 new female US congresswomen who were friends of Gabby whatshername, the congresswoman who got shot. In that piece, we learned that one had left her kids at home somewhere in the Southwest with her husband while she was a representative in Washington, etc. I always find it sad to read about the sacrifices that women end up making — particularly when they’re so different than the sacrifices men make. (The fact that Slaughter’s husband didn’t say “I’ll just quit my job and move the family to DC with you”, nor did the congresswoman’s, etc.)
Sorry for the dissertation, but one more thing: I’ve done the following things in pursuit of my career:
1. Quit a nonprofit job when they were threatening to bounce my child out of his public elementary school
2. Adjuncted when I wanted a full-time position
3. Quit the foreign service to follow my husband in his military career
4. Had my mother watch my kids while I went on a research/study trip to China
5. Dragged my kids along to Europe (twice!) while I taught a course
6. Took children with me to a professional conference
and next winter I’m going to England for 3 months by myself on a Fulbright — despite the fact that we have 3 teenagers. And yes, everyone has an opinion on that.
LikeLike
“And who am I to say it doesn’t work? Except, of course, if that woman ends up divorced or widowed or any other economic terrible thing goes on.”
This is going to sound terrible, but purely financially, a husband’s dying is not that hard to plan around. Unless he’s got some sort of serious medical issues when you’re trying to sign up, term life insurance is readily available and dirt cheap. (We’re carrying something like half a million dollars, but it probably should be closer to a million, bearing in mind that we’re buying a house and expanding the family.)
LikeLike
Permanent disability is both 1) harder to plan for and 2) much more likely than premature death.
LikeLike
I haven’t read it yet but my FB friends of both genders are cranky that the problem is framed as a woman’s problem and not a problem for both men and women.
LikeLike
I didn’t read the first one in its entirety, but it seems interesting and well-articulated, as for Ms. Wurtzel’s piece, as a semi-employed mother, I felt pretty insulted it. I think she has some good points, and when I went to research her I was relieved that she’s 3 years older than me — at least that! — but by concentrating on the 1% SAHMs — doesn’t she know ANY other moms that work a lot around the house? Wow… that’s how privileged she is… Anyway, I think that concentrating on only one kind of housewife weakens her argument considerably. I CAN’T WAIT to see what you have to say!!
LikeLike
Slaughter’s piece is excellent, and I hope it gets a conversation started in the Washington Post and in the Wall Street Journal, where perhaps it might permeate the business and political cultures. I wish The Atlantic had chosen a different headline, because men can’t have it all either as things stand now.
I have to confess that I have opted out of the occasional meeting noting a “prior commitment” so that I could meet my child off of the school bus. I’ve just always assumed it was best to keep my personal life out of professional discussions. On the other hand, I have a coworker who announces to all and sundry that she can never meet before 10:00am because she needs to get her children off to school. The reaction of our bosses seems to be more “Why can’t your husband do it some days?” and not “Wow, she is making good family-work balance choices”.
LikeLike
Good point on the insurance AmyP; we carry it too. I think I’m biased from having seen a family member who was widowed pretty young blow through it (mostly due to the young) and then struggle for years, especially once she retired. The amount didn’t index well, partly because of how it was managed, against inflation etc.
LikeLike
I agree with Christiana. Rename this piece “Why Parents Can’t Have It All” and I’m basically OK with it.
Just a note to remind everyone how far we’ve come. We now argue about how parents are not allowed to step away from work, but at least we’re arguing about real stuff: hours spend in the office, ability to travel. Time was, at least in the computer industry, if you were female your baseline competence was overtly questioned at every turn. Remember the whole “I made a point in a meeting and was ignored; my male staffer said the same thing and was heard” thing? That was regularly happening even ten years ago. The tone is so different today.
LikeLike
I read and blogged about Slaughter’s excellent piece today, which I call The Dissent of the Year – there’s so much I don’t agree with but I thoroughly enjoyed it. (Wurtzel’s? No thanks.)
I’m with @af about the problematic framing of this as a “women’s issue” alone. I also find it odd that Slaughter did not mention the patriarchy even once.
Amen @Louisa – If someone like Slaughter can’t make it work, who can? But also, I wonder is it that she can’t make it work, or that she won’t? So I wanted to know more of the backstory about her 14-year-old son that she chose to open her piece with – he’s having school problems and won’t talk to anyone. Is he neurotypical? Her story is another example of “doing for the kids” when maybe there are actually multiple other reasons at play, such as working for the government doesn’t pay enough and even someone as senior as me only gets 12 vacation days a year etc etc. She’s still working in a pretty high profile position in legal academe, if I’m not mistaken. She turned down the gov’t and moved back home – not your typical opt out at all.
LikeLike
I definitely don’t want to know Wurtzel’s opinion on pretty much anything and don’t see her lifestyle as any less indulgent than women who spend lots of time in the gym and a little bit with heir children ( assuming those people eist to any degree).
I didn’t get through the Slaughter piece, ’cause I Understand the choice she made, but don’t really see how another choice was possible. Is it surprising that playing a significant role in running America (and, really, that’s more important than Facebook) is incompatible with being significantly involved with the daily care of your children?
I do think one of the questions is thinking hard about what kids really need — I think they need to feel loved, and for some children that might mean having a parent who prioritized their needs 100% of the time. But I don’t think most kids need that, and part of the balance has to come from teaching your kids that they don’t need you all the time.
LikeLike
Also I think that when we hold up Scandinavia as a model, we need to understand its limits. Running Scandinavian foreign policy just isn’t the same thing as running American foreign policy.
LikeLike
On the other hand, I have a coworker who announces to all and sundry that she can never meet before 10:00am because she needs to get her children off to school.
How far is the school from her office? I’m at my desk a half hour after the kid is in school and I park a mile from my office.
LikeLike
“I definitely don’t want to know Wurtzel’s opinion on pretty much anything…”
I bet she could tell you a lot about drugs that you didn’t know. From the Amazon description of her second book:
“Elizabeth Wurtzel published her memoir of depression, Prozac Nation, to astonishing literary acclaim. A cultural phenomenon by age twenty-six, she had fame, money, respect everything she had always wanted except that one, true thing: happiness.
For all of her professional success, Wurtzel felt like a failure. She had lost friends and lovers, every magazine job she’d held, and way too much weight. She couldn’t write, and her second book was past due. But when her doctor prescribed Ritalin to help her focus-and boost the effects of her antidepressants — Wurtzel was spared. The Ritalin worked. And worked. The pills became her sugar…the sweetness in the days that have none. Soon she began grinding up the Ritalin and snorting it. Then came the cocaine, then more Ritalin, then more cocaine. Then I need more. I always need more. For all of my life I have needed more…”
I didn’t know that you’d even want to take cocaine and Ritalin alternately, which shows you how much I know.
LikeLike
One of the great things about this comment section is the high number of academics and educators who contribute their thoughts. But one of the bad things is that you all think getting into work at 10 is normal. Most jobs expect you in a chair for a minimum of 9 to 5. You get 2 weeks of vacation. If you take off more than a handful of days for children emergencies, then you get fired. If you demand too much flexibility or make too much noise, then you get fired. The security walks you to the elevator with your stuff in a box.
I liked that the slaughter article didn’t try to blame the patriarchy or find any cause to her predicament. I’ve read that kind of article a million times. I thought her solutions were a little idealistic, but much less so than similar pieces.
Kids do need their parents, though kids do differ. How much time do they need? Can’t say exactly, but I suspect more than slaughter was able to give them, ie a couple of hours on the weekends. Steve only sees the boys for 2 hours per day. That’s not enough time.
LikeLike
But one of the bad things is that you all think getting into work at 10 is normal.
It did strike me as normal before the kid started school. Academics might start work at 10:00, but no elementary school does.
LikeLike
My elementary kids are supposed to be in class (not just dropped off) at 8:10 AM. That’s quite the commute that woman has.
LikeLike
Oh, and you can drop off at 7:45 AM (not our cup of tea, but it is an option).
LikeLike
I had to come back, even though I still don’t have time to read all the excellent comments in detail, because I really had no idea whatsoever until today who Wurtzel was. I had read the term “prozac nation” but didn’t really know her books. I went back to Amazon right now and was reading some great reviews of her book Bitch… wow, now I know where she’s coming from and I don’t have the least respect for her. I hope that you don’t “waste” too much time on her in the piece you’re writing. I seriously don’t think her opinions are worth anyone’s attention (I agre with bj completely!).
As for what little I read of Slaughter’s piece, I agree with her. And I like Cristiana’s suggestion above of renaming it “parents can’t have it all” — though we’ve also talked ad nauseum here and elsewhere that one of the parents perhaps can if the other picks up the slack…
Still looking forward to your piece.
P.S. I agree that we academics really don’t have no idea of how the “real working world” works…
LikeLike
I meant to say ‘had heard’ not had read the term prozac nation.
LikeLike
Lillian’s right that the Amazon reviews of “Bitch” are a hoot. I haven’t read very far, but there’s one at the top with some quotes from an NPR interview with Wurzel.
Random Caller: Hello. I just want to say that I find it deeply offensive that your publisher and this radio network are presenting you as the voice of feminism, apparently on the merits of your appearance and connections. Your book is if anything anti-feminism, and the writing’s so bad it reads as though it was written on speed.
Wurtzel: It was written on speed.
[uncomfortable silence]
LikeLike
I read Prozac Nation just after being on SSRIs and being just slightly younger than her and having had some similar experiences as the ones in that book, so I had a fond spot for her at that time. But there was no question that she was really messed up, and that her thinking was really messed up, and what was great about that book was that she shared it so brutally honestly.
I don’t consider her opinion on parenting worth much other than to note she’s engaging in class warfare, which, if you read Prozac Nation, is kind of a theme with her.
I wanted to note that I work 9-5 most days and often 8-11 pm, and like I said I have events on weekends & evenings sometimes. I get three weeks vacation because I negotiated it, but taking it can be difficult. It does have some flexibility (I work 7-3 from home on Fridays) and I have a great boss. It’s definitely not the worst, but face time is a pretty big deal.
Having said that – I’m the oldest and one of the most experienced staff at my level, but I know that if/when cuts come I will be first to go because I do have to draw the line in the sand with time and events and also I have made visible choices around my kids.
The perception is that I’m not as committed and that’s only half true – I’m committed to this job more, perhaps, than younger people with more flexibility in their lives, but at the same time my kids win. If something goes wrong with my kids, that becomes my priority. Also, in digital media, the older you get the more suspect your opinions are about things like Tumblr. Cough.
It is frustrating and liberating at the same time, which fluctuates according to my short-term savings fund to tell you the truth.
LikeLike
I am a state worker and I am expected to be at my desk between 8 and 4 (give or take). I do get more than 2 weeks off a year and I also, because I am at a professional level, can take pretty much any needed time off- at short notice, too. I came her from the corporate world and was most impressed that managers, etc really meant- Family comes first. Dads and moms take off time as needed for Little League, parents conferences, etc. Now we are not talking the highest level jobs, but certainly one that pay $85K to $120K per year (in Albany this goes a lot farther than NYC). So some of this flexibility really does come down to the culture as nobody here cares about face time/macho time- we just try to get the job done. That said, telecommuting is not supported because then the bosses don’t know if you are actually “working”- like people don’t goof off when they are physically present at work.
One note of dissension with Slaughter’s ideas- I do not support matching the school schedule to business schedule. Yes, I know childcare is a hassle for the long summer months. However, long breaks of unscheduled time for creative pursuits and interests is wonderful for kids and I would not want to see that go away. I know that many parents fill those weeks up with summer camp and scheduled activities, but many of us do not and consider at needed surcease to the (sometimes crushing) academic demands on our kids.
LikeLike
On the other hand, I have a coworker who announces to all and sundry that she can never meet before 10:00am because she needs to get her children off to school.
“How far is the school from her office? I’m at my desk a half hour after the kid is in school and I park a mile from my office.”
Except for the announcing (everyone knew), that was me in Germany. On the other hand, the office had moved from a 10-minute bicycle commute away to all the way out at the end of the metro line, plus a 15-minute walk. So I left home at 8, dropped one kid at the Kindergarten, dropped the other at the Kinderkrippe in a different location, and then got in the metro to make it to my desk by 10. The Beatter Half had left long before the rest of us so that she could leave and do the reverse pick-up by 4:30pm, when extended day-care ended.
LikeLike
I know that kind of stuff happens (not from personal experience as I liive three miles from the office), but it seems a bit much to blame a long commutte on dropping off the kids.
LikeLike
Why is that?
LikeLike
It takes the combination of distance and kids so you should also blame zoning laws or whatever made you live so far away.
LikeLike
“It takes the combination of distance and kids so you should also blame zoning laws or whatever made you live so far away.”
…or the expense of living closer, or bad schools near work, or the spouse working far from where you work, etc.
I personally value keeping a tight work-school-home triangle as much as I can (it keeps small problems from turning into major catastrophes), but I suppose that if everybody shared that preference, our housing would be a lot less affordable.
LikeLike
For a trip down memory lane, here’s a Wurtzel 2009 piece:
http://www.elle.com/Life-Love/Sex-Relationships/Failure-to-Launch-When-Beauty-Fades
It is vividly written and very expressive, but it makes a very curious companion piece to the 1% housewife one.
LikeLike
It takes the combination of distance and kids so you should also blame zoning laws or whatever made you live so far away.
Ah, gotcha. Lack of day-care slots was the biggest factor. Easily 10 applications for every slot. So once we had one (and having one allows you to get the siblings in) moving across town when the company moved would have meant starting that process all over again. To say nothing of potential effects on the spousal person’s commute.
LikeLike
Of all the things that could cause a lengthy commute other than children, I have no idea why I hit on zoning laws. I think maybe it’s because I picked up the habit of reading the “Cities” section of the Atlantic after I was clicking over there for Laura’s pieces.
LikeLike