Yesterday, Ian walked through the playground minding his own business. As he walked near a group of girls, a girl named K. snarled at him and said, "No Boys Allowed!" Ian promptly kicked her.
His teacher sent me a note telling me about the incident. She said that Ian was told that he should use his words. I sent a note to the teacher asking for recommendations of the words that Ian should use when confronted with an eye rolling, mean girl. I had some choice words that he could use, but I am not sure that the teacher would approve.
Question of the Day: What words should Ian use when confronted by a bitchy, 9 year old girl?
Apt. 11d 
Laura, uh, I’m a little stunned to see you call out a 9-year-old child BY NAME on your blog, and call her a bitch, simply for saying, “No boys allowed” to your son.
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And BTW I believe the words Ian needs are “I’m not bothering you, and this is everyone’s playground.”
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Ann Landers suggests that when someone says something cruel you should ask them “What would make you say such a cruel/insensitive/instrusive thing?” Works pretty well whatever the age.
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I on the other hand, and I have a girl, fully understand why Laura would use those words. I shocked everyone by calling a (not nine year old) girl a slut the other day. I realized I was wrong — the word I was looking for was trollop. But, I understand the desire to protect our men (in this case it was a girl who was not being very nice to a nephew of mine).
We are seeing the mean girl world of exclusion play out right now. And, boy, is it mean. As Laura points out words are a pretty weak antidote (though kicking doesn’t work either, and, frankly, gives the mean girls more power, because they get the power of the authorities in addition to whatever social power they are wielding).
I do agree that Jen’s words, or something along those lines, are indeed the words that Ian should have rehearsed and ready to go in the circumstances, not because they’ll fix anything, but because they will not give the authorities an excuse to give more power to the mean girls.
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“[Meangirlism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”
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Alright. I removed her name. I think that girls who snarl “no boys allowed” are mean girls who turn into nasty women. Jonah had to deal with them before, too. I never knew what to tell Jonah about how he should deal with that type of kid either. When I come across that type of adult, I just tell them to fuck off, but, sadly, kids aren’t allowed to say that. Bullies come in all shapes and sizes and have all sorts of methods for inflicting terror. This girl is a bully.
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I have two girls, ages 9 and 11, whose ability to be cruel to each other is truly horrifying. And made more difficult by my own Cat’s-Eye type memories of my junior high years.
The reality is that helping kids learn how to navigate these situations is a really important life skill. I am still trying to do this well without just being mean back. Because let’s face it, that’s the easiest way in that moment. bj, perhaps your calling a 9yo a slut fell into this type of “choose to be mean back because it’s effective and I don’t know what else to do” category.
This Monday my 11YO had a boy run up to her at school drop-off and holler, “Your boyfriend Adrian’s here!” And in fact DD does have a crush on Adrian, so this could have been embarrassing. But she just rolled her eyes and said, step aside. And he did. And she continued on to her group of friends. End of discussion.
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I think the comment above by “bj” saying that we need to protect our “men” from these mean “girls” is very telling, along with the choice to call any 9-year old female a “slut,” a “trollup,” or even “bitchy.” What is it about these children being girls that makes their behavior extra-impermissible? Why is it okay to respond to an exclusionary, but not personal, comment with something physically violent? Why is it shocking that a teacher pointed out that this is not an appropriate way to react? What a disappointing entry, and comments section, for a blog that usually seems so progressive.
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“I realized I was wrong — the word I was looking for was trollop.”
Hee! How about “hussy”?
If I’m not mistaken, the word “slut” used to just mean “woman with sloppy housekeeping and dress,” (hence the term “slut’s wool” for dust bunnies).
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“What a disappointing entry, and comments section, for a blog that usually seems so progressive.”
I’m sorry you are disappointed and I will speak to the manager and make sure you get a full refund or a coupon for a free blog post–your pick.
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Yeah, I have to say I’m with JR. Why are people using these words about *children*? She’s *9*. She can change her behavior if she’s given guidance.
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Hmm, seems like a disagreement between the parents of boys and the parents of girls. I think jen’s and Sarah’s answers are pretty good. I certainly wouldn’t have suggested that my 9-year-old daughter respond to mean boys–there are plenty–by calling them dickheads or some such.
Although once, when my daughter was about 3 or 4, and some boys in the sandbox were mean to her (like they took her pail or something), I shouted at them to cut it out. One of them was very bad and yelled back: “We don’t care what you say!” I got up from the park bench, stormed over to the sandbox, and yelled right in his face that if I heard another word, I would knock his head off. He was terrified and ran away. But later, I heard him and his friend yelling “knock your head off” to each other, so I guess they got over it.
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“What is it about these children being girls that makes their behavior extra-impermissible? ”
More seriously, the form that aggression takes is often gendered. A normal aggressive school-age girl is going to express violence verbally, rather than physically. For one, girls are often smart enough to understand that you can get away with a lot of verbal abuse. (There are exceptions–as a girl in elementary, I recall getting physically attacked by groups of girls once or twice, as well as getting dragged around a playground by the hood of my coat by a much bigger girl.)
With his speech and social impediments, Laura’s son is at a huge disadvantage dealing with these girls, although I think jen’s language might be simple enough to work for him.
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(iPhone commenting. Typos will happen.)
Ian should not have kicked her. He lost computer privileges for that. But a kick from Ian is fairly laughable. He’s small for his age, does no sports, and has weak muscle tone. I would be surprised if his shoe actually made contact with a shin.
According to NJ’s new bullying law, this girl is a bully because she discriminating against Ian based on his gender. Also probably becuase he is in the “special” class. Because Ian is different, he’s the perfect victim. Unable to defend himself when the teachers intervened.
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It’s kind of awful that a bunch of grown women are actually acting like mean girls toward children.
I’m a former teacher, mom to two girls and someone who was bullied relentlessly by mean girls in grade school.
Mean girl behavior needs to be dealt with for sure and shouldn’t just be swept under the rug. No one should be kicked or hit, but teachers should be disciplining exclusion and meanness too. It’s unacceptable to vilify one child’s behavior while letting another off the hook. But it’s equally unacceptable to think it’s OKAY to kick a girl for being mean, and especially for adults to stoop to such childish behavior as name calling. Sheesh. There is NEVER a good reason to call a 9-year-old girl a slut, or a trollop. Sorry to be humorless here, but that’s really shitty.
I totally understand wanting to defend your own child, or nephew, but come on.
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Yes, but Amy P., neither maleness nor disability justifies violence. Ian and everyone else has to learn to live with whatever abilities God gave them and resolve disputes by some other means.
More generally, I’m not comfortable with defining violence to include social exclusion, verbal harassment, or anything else other than, you know, violence. I think it’s a slippery slope from there to speech codes, the destruction of mediating social institutions, and general proto-totalitarian change.
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Molly,
bj is the most PC of the PC. That’s why it’s hilarious coming from her.
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I’ve been in this precise position, except the girl’s dad called the school principal to complain. She handled it well, bringing my son (who is Ian’s age) and the girl together to talk about the situation, after which it never happened again. I don’t think the girl was being malicious. I am hoping that having sisters will give my son some insight that his brain isn’t giving him, and that they learn from him as well about how people might react.
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You know I actually drove home to correct the typos on my last comment and to add more.
I have a potty mouth. I make no apologies for that. Shrug. Some kids are assholes. Hell, sometimes my kids are assholes. I don’t call them assholes to their faces, but I’m thinking it. I honestly don’t get what the problem is with using that language towards kids.
I also am really surprised that anybody is having a problem talking about mean girls. Haven’t we talked about mean girls before on this blog? I’m sure we have. The phenomenon of mean girls is a real thing. There are plenty of academics writing books about mean girls. Boys can be assholes, too, but they are assholic in different ways. There are plenty of nice girls, too, who are victims of mean girls. My nieces have stories about them. This has nothing to do with progressive politics.
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“Yes, but Amy P., neither maleness nor disability justifies violence. Ian and everyone else has to learn to live with whatever abilities God gave them and resolve disputes by some other means.”
I don’t think there’s any disagreement there. I guess I’m just amused by how quickly moms get red in tooth and claw when OUR BABY is in trouble.
Here’s a verse from Kipling’s “Female of the Species” (I’m sure you know it):
So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice—which no woman understands.
http://www.potw.org/archive/potw96.html
That’s not totally accurate, but uncomfortably close to the truth.
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Using specifically gendered, especially sexualized, insults about young girls, though, has a lot to do with progressive politics. So many are ok with slut-shaming as a tactic? And at that age?
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I find it amazing that some commenters have more sympathies towards a nasty girl who went out of way to make a mean comment (apparently, Ian didn’t even want to join her group. he was just innocently walking by.) than a special needs, under weight, little boy with no social skills to navigate the shark infested waters of a playground. He was a victim of bullying. I’m his mother. I honestly don’t know what to say.
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The problem is that the focus is not on the behavior but on the girls themselves. The girl is not bitchy; the girl is acting bitchy.
My daughter, now 12, doesn’t suffer fools gladly these days. But she is friendly with M. The interesting thing is that M was mean to her back in 4th grade, to the extent that the teacher made M apologize to my daughter. Yes, back then I had M pegged as a potential mean girl. But my daughter is friends with her now. For whatever reason, M has moved beyond that all now. She’s not one of the “mean” girls now. (You could wonder if my daughter has become absorbed into a group of mean girls, but I am skeptical that this is the case.)
I’m comfortable saying M did a mean thing about 3 years ago. But I’m not comfortable saying M was a mean girl or is a mean girl. Kids try out behaviors, and they try ways of demonstrating power and they learn what works and what doesn’t. They need guidance and they need for the kids they’re trying these behaviors out on to use what skills they have to deal with them.
I will admit that I am lucky. E will whale on (actually, his choice of attack is biting) his sister when she’s obnoxious, but around kids who are not his sister, he just looks at them and takes a “whatever” attitude. Someone who is mean does not make sense to him and thus isn’t worth his time.
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“I guess I’m just amused by how quickly moms get red in tooth and claw when OUR BABY is in trouble.”
I’m not a mom. And, if I was unclear previously, I actually don’t condone telling four-year-old boys, no matter how fresh, that you will knock their head off, as I did. Or the use of sexual insults directed at children. What troubles me is that both the original post and some (not all) of the comments are not expressing penitence for bad temper and immaturity, but seeming to revel in it or muster intellectual defenses for it.
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“bj is the most PC of the PC. That’s why it’s hilarious coming from her.”
True, actually. I’m also the mother of a girl (though, honestly, not a mean one). My use of the word slut was actually inappropriate (and I got shocked looks when I used it, as I should have, and, as I said originally, not of a 9 year old, and not to a group of people who knew her). I think my admission was to support two principles: 1) mean girls can be really really mean. I think there’s a tendency to see girls as not being mean because they don’t punch, but they can use their non-physical power to hurt and 2) instinctual protection of the people we love is a normal response, and the one that Laura was expressing, I think, in writing on this blog. I’m not actually justifying calling a (17 year old, who I didn’t know) a slut on the basis of third hand reports about incidents, and I don’t mind being called out on it. I do, though, understand how it happens.
It is not PC, but I do understand it.
I agree with Wendy that we should criticize the actions and not the person, but, unfortunately the nature of the verbal bullying is that it isn’t an action or an incident. The issue with “No boys allowed” is not those words, at that time, which might even be funny or acceptable in some circumstances. The problem is the atmosphere the girls create when they wield their social power.
I understand Laura’s anger and feeling of helplessness, and, really, I’d like to see better examples of responses for Ian, specifically.
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Laura, you seem to imply that we can either have sympathy for Ian or for K, but not both. I just disagree – they’re both children.
I don’t condone K’s behavior, but I do not believe she deserved to be kicked. If she’d been called fat or a slut in response, I would have had a problem with that, too. Likewise I totally see your perspective in wanting to protect your child in a situation where he is uniquely unqualified to protect himself. I just think you’re responding too strongly.
If the gender stuff were removed here, and Ian had been slugged on the playground, I think we’d have more clarity. If Ian, when slugged, had slugged a boy back, they both would have been hauled into the office. And you probably would have given him a speech about learning to deal with bullying non-violently, or at least defending himself without going on the offensive. In this case I would argue “slugging back” consists of shaming or name-calling in response. I am arguing that Ian should learn to get out of the situation without using either violence or shaming/name-calling.
This is seriously not rocket science people — even mean girls are still children. (Just like bullying boys are still children.)
And Laura, my jaw hit the floor when you brought up the NJ bullying law. Do you mean to imply you agree with the law and believe that reinforces your position?
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PS: Now, I feel bad, ’cause I feel like the comments are accusing Laura of having called a 9 year old girl a slut or a trollop, which she didn’t do. That wasn’t even me (since the girl in question wasn’t nine). Would it be better if she called the girl an asshole, instead of a bitch? Or are both unacceptable?
I ask, because I really am PC about language. I don’t mind having people explain to me how language can hurt and how to adapt it appropriately convey the sentiment without reinforcing stereotypes (and have participated in enough discussions about words like “crazy” — as in crazy hair day and child with autism v autistic child and “seated” instead of wheelchair bound, . . .) to be willing to hear more about use of gendered/sexual terms.
(But, really, I want to hear more about how Ian should have used his words, in addition to how we should use them).
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@bj – IMHO asshole is acceptable if you would call a boy that in the equivalent situation. In this case I have trouble believing someone would refer to a boy as an asshole for saying “no girls allowed”.
Do we really believe that a boy saying “no girls allowed” would warrant an “asshole” comoment *from a parent*?? I have trouble buying that. No, what’s happening here is that {non-verbal) aggression from girls is considered scary and bad. Probably because Laura doesn’t know what to do to fend it off, and because it revives really horrid old memories for her. Whereas aggression from a boy is considered his only real defense.
BTW IMO it’s never OK to use the term slut, as it is overtly referring to sexual behavior that is acceptable for boys but not acceptable for girls. Likewise comments about appearance or weight must be used with extreme care when talking about girls, as we are judged more harshly on our appearance than the fellas.
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I have a girl who is 3 and her brothers (6, 8 and 10) both love, adore, and fear her. She’s tough as nails. I hope she will not grow up mean and I’m already working on that.
The word Ian needs is, “Whatever”. This annoys bullies no end (my kids are prone to be bullied, they have ADHD and don’t really fit into a mold). “Whatever” works really well, especially with an eye-roll.
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I disagree with the “whatever” response. It is indeed what I would have recommended until I started reading more about bullying. In particular, a teacher pointed me to Rosalind Wiseman’s website: http://rosalindwiseman.com/2011/03/16/going-back-to-the-basics-a-reality-check-on-bullying-prevention-tips/. I started reading the current work on bullying from that site, in a particular a description by Wiseman on how “walk away” is not a response when it leaves the child feeling powerless. A sincere “whatever” is indeed a powerful response. In fact, it’s saying that you really don’t care about the words that are being used to hurt you. It’s great if we can teach a child to feel that. But telling them to “walk away”, “ignore the words”, say “whatever” when they don’t feel that way is to tell them that they are going to be hurt, and that they can’t do anything in response.
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Aggression from a boy who weighs forty pounds and is half the size of other kids in his grade. Aggression from him wasn’t acceptable to us. He was punished. I’m not sure how to break this down any further.
Verbal aggression is just as bad as physical aggression. Why no condemnations of that?
Yes, whatever is the right words. We told him to say that. We also to stay away from that girl in the future.
Alright, I’m done here. I’m getting pissed off and don’t feel like dealing anymore.
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