There has been a request for a post on the G-20 Summit in Pittsburgh. We here at 11D aim to please, so here goes.
I am fascinated by the anti-globalization protests. Flashmobs are amazing. I have some sympathies for their concerns. In about twenty minutes, I'll be heading over to the local farmers' market to buy lettuce and radishes. When it comes to food, I'm a firm believer that local is better.
On the other hand, how can a blogger be against globalization? The Internet has contributed to the globalization of information. With information comes power and freedom.
One of the big issues on the table for the summit will be Wall Street bonuses. Clearly, I cannot be objective on this topic, so I'll pass.
So, Pittsburgh readers, please give us your on-the-ground commentary.
Apt. 11d 
‘Local is better’ often goes along with ‘organic’ etc. Quibbles: ‘Local’ often involved having been trucked to your gem-like local farmer’s market in an F-150 with three other boxes of product 20 miles. Consumption of gasoline per carrot far higher than 300 miles from North Carolina in a big truck. And furthermore, you buy your presented-on-velvet vedgies from the farmer’s market, and you haven’t been able to buy the applesauce and Wheaties your kids need so you drive to the local supermarket anyway, so you have used double the gas.
To throw a little more lighter fluid on the coals, I heard Bruce Ames talk once about organic produce. He pointed out that pesticides get careful scientific review, but that plants which are stressed by, for example, insect infestations – make their own anti-insecticidal materials to protect themselves in response. His group has looked at some of these natural insecticides, and they are by no means innocuous. His view being that the fat-dumb-and-happy pesticide-protected plants from the supermarket may have less actually harmful stuff in them than the organic produce.
Thank you, I will now retire from the field and you can all take shots at me…
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I know very little that isn’t in the local paper. Last night, apparently a dozen police cars came to monitor a protest meeting that was a few blocks from my house. I didn’t hear of anything until it hit the news. I’m a bit nervous because the big protest (at least the biggest one with a permit) is scheduled to start within spitting distance of my main office, not that I’ll be there. Not that I’ve been actively looking, but I’ve seen no obvious anarchists. On the other hand, the police are everywhere.
I did enjoy the guys who climbed off the bridge with the global warming banner, especially since they were considerate enough to use a bridge that I never drive.
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” His view being that the fat-dumb-and-happy pesticide-protected plants from the supermarket may have less actually harmful stuff in them than the organic produce”
This seems like an unlikely interpretation of Ames’s views. He says that naturally occuring carcnogens are more widespread than pesticides, and thus, pesticides aren’t all that bad. But, that’s not the same as saying that organic produce (minus the pesticides) contain *more* harmful stuff. I think the argument is actually more like — pesticide laden produce doesn’t contain significantly more carcinogens than the organic stuff, and it’s cheaper, and thus more likely to be eaten.
A key point that even this argument doesn’t take into account well is that human beings have co-evolved with the natural mix of carcinogens (and protective agents) in regular food, while pesticides are a new innovation. And, selection pressure won’t even particularly help us build resistance to pesticides, ’cause the effects come after reproduction.
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I don’t like protests, and I think that globalization is unstoppable. Unstoppable, that is, if we want to continue to have a free society. I think we need to talk about how we will manage the change, not about how to stop it from happening.
And, I’ve never gotten the anti-G20 protests. They seem to be an excuse rather than a real protest.
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Well, what Ames said was that plants which are stressed – getting chewed on by bugs – elaborate more of these natural anti-insect materials than plants which are not being stressed. That the plants respond to the conditions they are in. And, he said that his group had taken a look at some of these natural materials and they looked bad for you. So, because the pesticides result in less stress for the plants, they make less of their natural insecticides. So he in fact did say that the organic produce contains more harmful stuff.
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You can follow the unpermitted march here:
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/bigstory/default.aspx
It doesn’t look to be much as they are saying only 1,000 people and they don’t appear to be getting very close to the meeting (and are a long way from my house). On the other hand, the police are using tear gas.
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I think the problem with globalization protests and discussions is that they’re so… well…. global. That is, there’s a great deal of generalized b@tching but very little specificity. The term is used so broadly that it is practically meaningless if it is not carefully circumscribed. This latter characteristic means that it is great fodder for angry mobilization, but is problematic for deep and specific analysis.
Globalization, and the various factors that make up our basic understanding of the word, is a vast social, political, economic, and cultural frame that produces winners and losers. Sometimes the winners in one facet of globalization (Mexican truck drivers, for example, more employed after NAFTA) are the losers in others (they vulnerable to the collapse of the Mexican state due to the expansion of the drug trade).
So, Laura, I see no contradiction in your seeming divergent views on organic foods and blogging.
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I’m always hearing people criticize farmers markets and/or buying local by way of attacking hidden costs, or on the basis of nutritional science, or some other presumably rational, utilitarian measure. Which is interesting, since the overwhelming majority of those people I know–and I know a lot of them–who are choosing to live and eat and shop and consume more frugally and locally are doing it for moral or aesthetic or religious or lifestyle reasons. This is not a good way to win the debate, guys.
I have serious problems with globalization. I agree with bj that’s probably unstoppable, but I can still dislike it.
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“attacking hidden costs…”
I think high prices should be a danger signal that there are high inputs (for instance, energy) involved.
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-who are choosing to live and eat and shop and consume more frugally and locally are doing it for moral or aesthetic or religious or lifestyle reasons
Yes, just like some vegetarians choose it because of moral or religious objections to using animals; these choices are still subject to attacks based on health, cost transfer to the community or other individuals, and getting it wrong. For example, because “organic” isn’t well defined, an organic peach may not have any less pesticide residue than a non-organic one–it’s just that the pesticide used was constructed without man-made chemical compounds. Lots of organic compounds are dangerous.
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The theoretical arguments being raised are plausible — expect for the technical definition of organic (i.e. carbon-based), “synthetic” and “natural” are constructs that shouldn’t be too broadly interpreted (certainly not as synthetic=bad; natural=good). The same, incidentally applies to endogenous v applied “applesauce.” (i.e. pharmaceuticals).
And, I agree that Ames’s general arguments (profiled in Gold, L.S.et al in Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology), I’m not finding any, and I mean any, evidence that the combination of endogenous and synthetic pesticides in organic food is *higher* than in non-organic food. It’s a measurement worth making, but I’d be greatly surprised if the stress caused by not using pesticides increased the pesticide residues substantially. This is a muck things up argument.
BTW, I personally think the health benefits to the consumer of organic consumption are minimal to zero (though I certainly don’t think they’re worse for you). On the other hand, I do think there’s worker-risk associated with pesticides, and potential environmental risks. But, I think some organics taste better — grapes, for example, which for me often have a faint whiff the chemical smell and after taste about them if they’re not organic.
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Protesters have damaged both KFC and Boston Market. Fortunately, I don’t want chicken tonight.
As for stopping globalization, it wouldn’t be impossible. You’d just need a knock-off MLK with a lesser sense of the brotherhood of man.
“I have a dream that one day the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood, so long as they all speak English with basically the same accent.”
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What I don’t understand is the arrogance that merely because a person believes that “Local is better,” that person is entitled to use the coercive power of the state–millions of young men with guns–to force other people to live according to the same principle, even though they don’t share the same belief. Why wouldn’t it be enough to spend a bit more to consume locally, if that’s what pleases you, and let other consenting adults enter into whatever transactions they please?
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Y81: What? Is this a farm subsidy thing or gross misreading thing? (Speaking of the power of the state, the sound of an aircraft overhead has been constant since 5:00.)
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In about twenty minutes, I’ll be heading over to the local farmers’ market to buy lettuce and radishes. When it comes to food, I’m a firm believer that local is better.
Sure- I love the food from the farmers’ market, too, mostly because it tends to be fresher, I like the variety, etc. But there’s no obvious competition between this and globalization in any plausible sense. I don’t want to make anyone buy from the farmers’ market, and I don’t want anyone to make me buy from the Shop-Rite, and thanks to the market we’re both able to be happy.
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Anybody remember the woman came to Pittsburgh for the 2008 campaign and who said she was mugged at an ATM for supporting McCain? The one who said the mugger carved ‘B’ on her face, but she got tripped-up because the ‘B’ was backward? Well, the windows of the bank she said she was attacked at are broken.
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“so long as they all speak English with basically the same accent”
MH FTW.
I’ve often wondered about the point of view that says, “Now that we’re all free to go anywhere, would everyone please just stay home?” I’d say “wondering” in the sense of WTF, but that may be Russell’s view, so I want to find some milder way to express that question.
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Have they strung up any financiers yet, MH? Because a local branch manager is not enough for our updated Voltaire, “Dans ce pay-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un financier pour encourager les autres.”
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Globalization is ok but with the restrictions that both parties would agree and no set backs. If this pull of everybody will benefit greatly from this endeavor.
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I personally think globalization would slow considerably if we were all paying the full costs of our energy supplies (including environmental damage remediation). That would be the end of the Wal-Mart model, that’s for sure, which depends upon ultra-cheap energy to ship everything from China, and then ship it again all across the US.
I’m less certain when it comes to non-tangibles. Should we be shipping lettuce from California? Probably not. Is it OK to download files placed on a server anywhere in the world? I don’t see why not. Not sure what I think in response to the whole “my wages as a programmer are going down because of all the programmers in India” argument. I’ve met tons of programmers who have been laid off because of this trend, and frankly they had issues. (Not that everyone in India is a brilliant programmer, it’s just that people have more tolerance for screw-ups when the hourly rate’s so low.)
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“Globalization is ok but with the restrictions that both parties would agree”
First order of business: all Chinese food products get labeled as such in 2-inch high letters. (I just realized that the usual brand of juice box that I used to buy for the kids is made in China. Tiny, tiny print.)
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Apparently, two protesters tried to block the exit from Whole Foods at 11:00 this morning. Police moved the protesters immediately, probably for fear of the protesters being crushed by an SUV whose driver was smiling to toddler in the back, talking on a cell phone, and eating a muffin while exiting.
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Doug,
I’ve often wondered about the point of view that says, “Now that we’re all free to go anywhere, would everyone please just stay home?” I’d say “wondering” in the sense of WTF, but that may be Russell’s view, so I want to find some milder way to express that question.
A milder way to express the overall local/communitarian/anti-globalization point might be something along the lines of:
“Obviously, we’ve chosen–or been obliged by unanticipated economic and technological developments to choose–to live in an global environment which mostly prioritizes individual choice and mobility and liberty, and the results have been pretty great for the most part, so by all means, make use of all that as you think about what you want to study and how you want to live and where you want to go. But still, as you invest your personal lifestyle (not to mention your savings, your marketability, and your political commitments) in the ideal of boundary-less flexibility, you might want to keep in mind that, no matter who you are or where you are from, the odds are very, very, VERY good that sooner or later you’re going to start thinking about all sorts of permanent things (God, death, spouse, children, belonging, home, etc.), and when you get to that point, the odds are again very, very, VERY good that you’re going to want to be able to do it in a neighborhood, a culture, an ethnic/religious/social context that you are familiar with and basically comfortable with. And if it turns out that, in the meantime, your preferred place for all of the above has been bankrupted and bought out by Abercrombie & Fitch or Intel, well, that would really suck. So maybe, in addition to protecting peoples’ liberties and all, we should try to prevent that, a little bit.”
Okay, that was way too long and pretentious, but you get the point.
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“I personally think globalization would slow considerably if we were all paying the full costs of our energy supplies (including environmental damage remediation). ”
I’ve wondered about this, too. I think one of the very weak points in market stuff is that we casually include some costs but no others in the cost of a product. In the cost of the Wallmart product, the market costs are being included, so the question is how to price the other costs (environmental damage, global warming, . . .). Those costs are hard to measure, but I do believe in making guesses and imposing them — they’re certainly non-zero. We might over or under-price, but right now, energy markets often treat them as though they were zero, at least at the point of sale.
I also think we need to include the costs associated with lack of freedom — to organize, to protest, to quit your job. I’m convinced those factors play a role in prices of products from China. Now, I don’t feel the same way about India. That’s ’cause I separate the economic pressures (utter poverty) that depress wages from the political pressures (political suppression) that depress wages.
On the other hand, when energy costs are irrelevant (i.e. programming done in India, or call centers) I see absolutely no reason why the job shouldn’t be done there, and I think the net good to humanity increases. Transitions are hard, though, and I do want to help people through them.
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i.e. programming done in India
I keep forgetting about that. I should be more opposed to globalization.
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“and when you get to that point, the odds are again very, very, VERY good that you’re going to want to be able to do it in a neighborhood, a culture, an ethnic/religious/social context that you are familiar with and basically comfortable with.”
Except here I am with spouse and kids in a mountainous, Orthodox, ancient country with a non-Indo-European language and a non-Roman alphabet. So maybe I’m out at the far end of the bell curve, but that’s where I am.
“And if it turns out that, in the meantime, your preferred place for all of the above has been bankrupted and bought out by Abercrombie & Fitch or Intel, well, that would really suck.”
Well, I spent a couple of years in rural Tennessee before Wal-Mart, and in terms of the things that Wal-Mart brought with it, there’s just no comparison. After was heaps and heaps better. The nearest thing to a predecessor, was open odd and irregular hours, was dusty and drab, had a horrible selection of household goods and clothes and such, was basically front-to-back terrible. And that was in the county seat down in the valley. What things were like in smaller places in the mountains or the hollows, you can well imagine. The long and the short of it is that lots of these places sucked before the larger economy took an interest (to say nothing of how long variations of this discussions have been going, viz. the Sears mail-order catalog vs the local general store), and participation in larger currents has been largely an improvement.
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“Well, I spent a couple of years in rural Tennessee before Wal-Mart, and in terms of the things that Wal-Mart brought with it, there’s just no comparison. After was heaps and heaps better. The nearest thing to a predecessor, was open odd and irregular hours, was dusty and drab, had a horrible selection of household goods and clothes and such, was basically front-to-back terrible. And that was in the county seat down in the valley. What things were like in smaller places in the mountains or the hollows, you can well imagine. The long and the short of it is that lots of these places sucked before the larger economy took an interest (to say nothing of how long variations of this discussions have been going, viz. the Sears mail-order catalog vs the local general store), and participation in larger currents has been largely an improvement.”
My home town has never rated a Walmart, but I think this is true. Unglobalized small town life means either buying super expensive shoes from your home town independent store, or driving 80 minutes away for more selection and prices you can actually afford. And it’s the exact same shoes from the exact same sweat shops–they just cost more. Or (worst case scenario) you can buy your shoes at the grocery store. I think I’ve also written here before on the horrors of small town produce. A grocery store is one of those things that has to be pretty big if it’s going to have decent prices. You pay $3 a can for soup at ye olde corner store and $1.50 at the big grocery. (My sis who runs a cafe/mini-grocery chooses not to stock those items, because the prices she would need to charge to make any money would be very bad for customer good-will.) Even in our decent-sized city in Texas, car prices are clearly out-of-line with the big city prices. But if you drive an hour away, you can save a couple thousand dollars even on a used car. I’d point out that all of this stuff is much harder on those who are poor and less mobile. It costs more to be poor.
That said, don’t buy the Chinese shrimp.
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My hometown still doesn’t have a Walmart either, and what it does have is not as nice. I never shop at Walmart, because I have a Target, but I have very little nostalgia for small town stores. I remember the complaints that chains and Amazon were killing independent bookstores. But I got to a bookstore maybe twice a year when I was growing up (and that was a Walden Books). Fortunately, my parents had hundreds of books, but my classmates didn’t have that.
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MH,
Ah, Waldenbooks. I got to go to Waldenbooks on a similar schedule when I was a kid. What a thrill it was in high school to be able to roam there during dinner breaks on track trips to away meets. I do like independent bookstores, but only used ones (like Caliban’s), because they do the hard work of sorting through the chaff and figuring out what I want to read.
By the way, your neighborhood sounds like it has had a lot of changes since I lived there. When I lived there (1998-2001), there was only a Giant Iggle, no Whole Foods, no Starbucks, and the Panera’s had only just come in, killing the Einstein Bagels across the street. It sounds a lot yuppier nowadays from your descriptions. Were you there for the transition?
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Without commenting on the costs/benefits of globalization and/or the merits of organic food on way or the other, I am amused that while ordinary citizens protesting peacefully at Townhall meetings are characterized as proto-terrorists by most in the MSM and many on the “left” in general such as frequent this site, those committing ACTUAL terroristic acts and destroying real property–both private and public–are in large part un-commented upon by types such as post here except to note in passing the extent of the damage (see MH)–as if such things when done by the left are to be expected as a natural part of the social environment–much like the weather–without any moral component attached to their very real destructive actions–and thus get a pass with almost zero condemnation. Yet oh so many types like you people here dither and wring your hands over middle aged housewives harranging their elected representatives in what are admittedly at times boisterous, but nonetheless peaceful demonstrations, as if somehow an eminent threat to the very fabric of the Republic exists by the very presence–neigh, existence–of such people.
And the smug comments so typical of those here that regard themselves as the social and intellectual “bettors” of the “hoi polloi” is sickening. MH, I see, apparently fears SUVs more than rock throwing mobs–perhaps because he either fancies himself as spiritually among the rock throwers–or cannot envision himself mistaken for an “enemy of the people” and thus safe from being mis-identified by his erstwhile spiritual “associates.” And Doug smerkingly asks if any financiers have been killed yet, obviously attempting to firmly establish his bona fides as a “man of the left” with his union card still in good standing. It’s always nice to eavesdrop on those who believe themselves to be in sole possession of “The Vision of The Anointed” when you believe yourselves to be talking amongst only like-minded individuals.
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Virgil X,
I’m a white guy, alarmed by how close he is to 40, with an office job and clothes from Brooks Brothers. I know exactly what I look like to mobs. On various Pittsburgh blogs, I have defended the police’s actions (or most of them, because there were pretty clearly a few ‘late hits’). I live in a two-SUV household and do nearly all of my shopping at Whole Foods. I used to park in the ‘alternative fuels only’ spot before I noticed the sign and the Prius next to me.
As for the bankers, I’m not calling for anybody’s actual head, but I’m pretty pissed myself. You could break every window in my house and it still wouldn’t cost me what I lost in B of A stock. I don’t see how the Merrill guys got their bonuses without some law or good business practice being violated.
(My big idea for summer 2009 was to start a website linking pissed-off small stock holders with the most annoying hippies around. The idea is to give anti-capitalists proxy votes so they could be assholes at the meeting. As near as I can figure, this is as close to holding a board accountable as I am likely to get.)
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Amy,
1998 was probably the first time I was in Squirrel Hill also, though I didn’t come often before 2002. The Whole Foods is in East Liberty, not Squirrel Hill. Trader Joe’s is there as well. That area is getting more and more retail and dining. Those developments and Waterfront, which I think opened before you left, have had an impact on our business district. The Panera in Squirrel hill just closed two weeks ago. We are getting a Dunkin Donuts that opens on Tuesday (at Forbes and Shady, where it will fight one of two Starbucks in the area). They also built a giant drug store at Forbes and Murray (on the JCC’s corner). There are only a few vacant store fronts, but the mix is shifting. Ice cream (4 places), bakeries (one gluten free), coffee shops, and banks are increasing. Other retail is shrinking. One gas station is gone. Most of the Chinese and pizza places have survived, but the fancier restaurants have had trouble. The business district has not seen any of the large scale investment that the rest of the East End has seen, probably because the ground is too expensive and sub-divided to do a big development at a reasonable cost. Somebody is planning a hotel at Murray and Forward (they have what used to be Poli’s and what still is the crappy movie theater), but I think the recession stalled it.
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Wow, MH, somehow I just never pictured you rocking the Brooks Brothers! I’ll have to update my mental “MH smirking” visual.
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It’s not like I wear a suit more than twice a year, its just that BB makes such nice khakis and shirts. Due to the recession/private school tuition, I’m experimenting with Land’s End, but the pants don’t crease right because the fabric is wrong.
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