There are rumors circulating around the internet about Palin. I had a post that linked to the blogs, but pulled it down, because these rumors have a highly sexist stink to them. There’s something really creepy about checking out pictures of women’s bellies. If you care, check out Kos and Sullivan. (I think I accidentally deleted a comment from Sam. Sorry, Sam.)
97 thoughts on “Ugly Rumors”
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Apt. 11d 
Well, the Republicans have rumors about Obama not being a US citizen, Democrats have rumors about…. The “paranoid tendency in American politics”?
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Yeah, and doesn’t blogging feed into that paranoia? This story snowballed in one day. Already, I’ve seen a YouTube video of pregnant women and a compare/contrast w/Palin. There have been sheet shots of deleted web pages and all sorts of zoomed in photos. Bloggers love this shit.
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My daughter’s birth mother was overdue before you could tell she was pregnant. I agree Palin doesn’t look pregnant in the photos, but I think it’s likely because she didn’t want the appearance of a new child to make people take her less seriously. I would be floored if this rumor were true. It’s up there with Obama being a Muslim and Hilary killing Vince Foster.
And wouldn’t you love being a seventeen year old with a little pot belly accused of being pregnant? Talk about stuff that brings on an eating disorder.
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Actually, I saw speculations dated April. The rumor wasn’t the work of a day. The ugliest and the most unforgivable aspect of it is that it drags in Palin’s minor daughter. Aside from the pregnancy issue, the daughter either knows now or is going to know pretty quick that tens of thousands of jerks have been studying photos of her mid-section and deeming what they see evidence of post-pregnancy “pooch.” It’s especially rich if the people doing this think that they are somehow doing American women a favor. And it’s so stupid. 1. As lots of people have noted already, teenaged girls don’t produce a lot of babies with Downs Syndrome. 2. Muffin-top is more the rule than the exception among American girls in their late teens. 3. This was apparently a Desperate Housewives plot device. Ai-yai-yai.
Speaking of internet phenomena, I’m hearing reports of lots of google searches for Palin in a bikini or Palin in a swimwear contest. There’s a huge public appetite for photographs of Sarah Palin. Interestingly, there seem to be a lot of male fans of her up-do and glasses. Who knew?
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Particularly because if someone *has* mono we should expect their activity level to decline and their weight to increase. In the very late images Palin looks plausibly pregnant. But even if the conspiracy is true, who gives a damn? This is supposed to make her look *bad*? The only thing it would bring into question would be the wisdom of agreeing to run. I say drop it; if they have to go negative on Palin, there’s plenty of stuff they can use that’s well within bounds.
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“They” meaning the bloggers. I doubt anyone from the Obama campaign will touch this with a ten-foot pole.
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The only reason I would think this gets play (beyond the fact that it’s essentially replaying the “debate” “we” all had about Katie Holmes two years ago, so the grooves are already worn into the Internet) is because it taps into the fear that Republicans can Cover Up Anything — just as “Obama is a Muslim” taps into the fear that Democrats don’t Believe In Our Values.
Now, I’ll grant you — Palin doesn’t look plausibly pregnant to me, although if I wanted to pursue the rumor, I’d want to compare photos of her in her seventh month to photos of Cherie Blair in HER seventh month. In point of fact, lots of first time mothers gain a lot more weight in their first pregnancies than later, not least because they realize after-the-fact that it’s harder to lose all that “yay! No diets for these nine months!” weight than they expected. (Princess Diana was my intro to this, btw. She commented at the time about her pleasure in gaining so much less the second time around. Rather poignant to remember that now, given all we didn’t know at the time.) Plus, late-1980s housewife vs. 2008 governor? Of course the governor is going to look more svelte.
Still and all, I too heard rumors back in April — the whole delivery situation seems bizarre.
It makes for pleasant weekend gossip, but it’s probably not worth worrying about, because actually, there WON’T be any way to disprove it.
If I had any thought of voting for McCain, I’d question the selection more — in terms of his vetting, her experience, everything. But I was never, ever going to vote for him, so I just don’t care.
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Oh, and I’m with Amy P — how absolutely god-awful for the daughter. {Shudder}
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These rumors started in April? Huh. Missed that one.
There are certainly some weird things about the birth and the pregnancy, which is why I couldn’t help but do a little googling to read more. But really, who cares? Even if it is true, I really don’t care. Maybe it might show that weaknesses in McCain’s vetting procedures, but that’s even pretty minor.
While googling, I did read a couple of bloggers who said that mothers of special needs kids couldn’t handle elected office. Nice.
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“Still and all, I too heard rumors back in April — the whole delivery situation seems bizarre.”
Some mothers seem to get more relaxed the more kids they have. SP probably thought that after all those other babies, she could deliver this one all by herself, Downs Syndrome complications notwithstanding.
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This thing is all over the intertubes. At this point, I think she needs to knock it down authoritatively. Birth certificate, etc. For the sake of her daughter….
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“At this point, I think she needs to knock it down authoritatively. Birth certificate, etc. For the sake of her daughter….”
That seems like a good idea for the daughter’s sake. On the other hand, what an awful precedent for female politicians to be asked to roll out all their gynecological records!
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I managed to hear both these rumors (Obama not a citizen, the birth of Trig Palin) today. I think that they’re both ridiculous, and that it doesn’t matter if either of them were true.
I think Sam is right that the Palin rumor is more harmful because it involves other living people. I’m not sure she gains by officially smacking it down, but I think that that’s what the Swift Boat campaign taught us right — you need to knock down rumors even if they’re ridiculous. The Obama rumor doesn’t need to be knocked down because it won’t be bought by a court, and those who want to believe that he’s not “really” American are going to believe it anyway, if they wanted to, and the rest of us don’t care if the convoluted facts were true, and it concerns actions taken by people other than him. The Palin rumor might need to be knocked down because it makes her a lier, and that would be relevant.
I wonder how our world is being changed by the existence of these crazy rumors, and their spread? We have better access to both ridiculous information and real information (today I looked up the the number of hysterectomies (600,000/year) and the number of abortions (1.2 million/year), and know those are accurate. I also heard both of these two ridiculous rumors which are just ridiculous.
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Boy, I think it really just sucks if she has to say anything official about this. It is just such a patently ridiculous rumor. I just went and clicked on some links to the supposed “photos” and they are just ludicrous. One obvious fact: any teenager who is pregnant and trying to hide it would choose some other article of clothing to wear. It’s not all that hard to choose a different style. And, any mother who was trying to hide her daughter’s pregnancy would arrange her family a little bit differently. Dumb, dumb.
Anyone who lends any credence to this riduculousness (sorry for the over use of a non-word, but all the others I can think of are words I don’t use) deserves the same condemnation I gave to Hillary’s “He’s not a muslim . . . a far as I know” comment.
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Oh, no, I don’t think Palin should dignify this with a response. I would be shocked if it makes the MSM, and as long as it’s just crazy blog-talk, why bother?
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I’m not sure it is just “crazy blog-talk” at this point. Andrew Sullivan (a blogger to be sure, but at the Atlantic) has taken it up in a big way, and Colmes seems to have been hinting around it in a now-pulled internet post.
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Apparently, some much more pregnant photos of SP have surfaced, and it looks like this story is starting to collapse. (There’s a big post over at ace.mu.nu with quotes from the rumor mills.)
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It is a strange, strange moment when I agree with the good old “Ace of Spades….”
There is, I suppose, a secondary issue here concerning reproductive choice and potential hypocrisy on both sides vis-a-vis the long road home to Alaska.
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Turns out the tinfoil hat crowd was half right.
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Listen, I know this whole thing is scurrilous, inappropriate, sexist, etc. But … I cannot help myself.
My dad just told me about Bristol’s current pregnancy. He let it sink in and paused after he told me. After a beat, I burst out laughing and said “THIS is supposed to dispel those rumors?” He said “Exactly my thinking.” I guess tinfoil hats are genetic.
OK, I’m done. I apologize.
Worst case scenario: McCain wins, Palin resigns as VP because of her family, and Cheney or someone else inappropriate is made VP. Then we are all massive losers.
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Oh dear. The daughter is pregnant now. Weirder and weirder.
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ha. Dan and Wendy beat me.
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That poor girl.
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You think her mom will try to get the guy fired if they divorce?
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Doug!
This whole situation is just too bizarre. Especially coming from the campaign that ran the ad connecting Obama to Britney Spears.
I am curious — how well was Palin vetted by Republican insiders? I’ve seen stories that suggest she wasn’t vetted, but mostly on blogs, and I’m sort of a dinosaur in not really taking blogs, no matter what their names or readership, all that seriously.
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Remember just a few months ago when people used to sputter that questions about a candidate’s relationship with his pastor of 20 years were odious and out of bounds?
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Yes, yes, Siobhan, it’s ok if you’re a Republican.
How long before the repentence card gets laid next to the invitation to the shotgun wedding?
But I’d be interested in hearing how any of the Rs here argue that the choice speaks well of McCain’s judgement.
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Wow. That was a surprise. Maybe this time, it’s really mom’s baby and the daughter is faking a pregnancy?
Question: If McCain had chosen a Mr. Governor Palin as his VP pick, would a pregnant unwed teenage daughter resonate differently?
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“But I’d be interested in hearing how any of the Rs here argue that the choice speaks well of McCain’s judgement.
The family is maybe a little bit too interesting right now and it would be better if this stuff had been all tidied up a couple months earlier, but I fail to see why having an unexpectedly pregnant daughter should disqualify anybody from holding high public office. Particularly since I suspect that this “rule” (if it is one) applies only to women.
If we’re going that way, it’s going to be time to start subpoenaing and combing through the records of every abortion clinic in the country. I don’t think we want to go there.
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Doubt it. Alaskan women can wield teh shotgun just as well as the men…
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Thanks, Amy, for the judgement argument. Any of the other Rs care to have a go?
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After posting on the Bristol pregnancy announcement, Andrew Sullivan is still demanding SP’s obstetrical records, on the grounds that medical records are released, so it’s no big deal to release obstetrical records. Any thoughts on this?
“Now they’ve cleared the air on this – and good for them – what harm would it do to release the medical records showing that Sarah Palin delivered Trig on April 18 in Wasilla? This is not hard: there must be an obstetrician, medical records, and data that can easily refute this rumor. It is not out of the ordinary either: candidates routinely issue medical records. So let’s have them. And then we can move on.”
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But I’d be interested in hearing how any of the Rs here argue that the choice speaks well of McCain’s judgement.
Let’s see, McCain knew this news would cause a kerfuffle among the MSM and would likely be a distraction (short-lived, perhaps?) from his campaign message.
He must have decided to weigh this against the many reasons why he thought that Palin’s selection was a very good one.
So, will Palin be attacked for being a horrible mother to allow her daughter to become pregnant and then marry? Or, for going on the campaign trail with a newly pregnant daughter and a special needs baby who need her more? Or for being a part of a less than perfect family? If so, these attacks will be roundly denounced by most.
Most fundamental Christian types I have known believe in forgiving the sinner. And other potential McCain voters are unlikely to be driven off by this news, I think.
It all points to good judgment as far as I’m concerned.
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Not a R, but I can’t resist my two bits. I don’t give a crap about pregnant teenagers and even mommy swapping. But I do have a problem with the R narrative about how Palin was chosen. They are saying this shows McCain is a real maverick. A guy who makes snap decisions that baffles others. He was the guy who used to start fights in the mess hall, they say. I don’t know. Those type of guys always seem like assholes to me. Mavericks are often self-centered, attention whores who are more testosterone than brains. I don’t really want a maverick president.
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Honestly, I think when you have two of your five your children who are likely going to need a lot of time and attention is not the best year, if you are a man or a woman, to run for national office. I think if she would have graciously declined, she could’ve been excited about the prospects in 4 or 8 years. Personally, I can’t believe she made this decision.
For the record, I felt the same way about Edwards going for the nomination in light of Elizabeth’s cancer.
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Here’s McCain’s problem: what are we talking about? Is this the narrative he wanted to have dominating the week of his convention? Is this playing to his supposed national security strengths? Does it bolster his obvious weakness on economic issues? Why are we talking about who was pregnant when and how it all unfolded. He knew this going in. He chose this narrative. It is not about Palin or her daughter, it is about McCain. This is how he will “govern.”
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“… Andrew Sullivan … Any thoughts on this?”
Haven’t read him in years, and this makes me think that’s still a good approach.
“He must have decided to weigh this against the many reasons why he thought that Palin’s selection was a very good one.”
That would be a very interesting list to see. What good reasons do you see?
How long before the repentence card gets laid next to the invitation to the shotgun wedding?
“Most fundamental Christian types I have known believe in forgiving the sinner.”
Well that didn’t take long, at least on this blog.
“It all points to good judgment as far as I’m concerned.”
So she’s the best person in the United States (or at a stretch, among Republicans and independents) to be a heartbeat away from the presidency?
I’m still thinking the young daddy shouldn’t take a state job.
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Obama’s response.
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Classy response. I think that guy will go far in life…
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ps Laura, sorry to have so thoroughly infested your comment thread. I’ve got two more hours to kill before I go to the airport for a 4am departure (how do I love thee, O travel for work, let me count the ways), and I seem to have taken an extra snark pill today. And the SAP-related translation I’m supposed to polish off before then is a steaming pile of no-fun, whose only redeeming feature is that the original is short.
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Gawd–go away from two days and what happens? This is a non-story and I am cringing and some of the Kos-related activities today. Obama’s answer is spot on.
Although Palin’s answer about the pledge of allegiance bears some consideration since it suggests that she actually thinks that the phrase “under God,” which was added in 1954, was written by the Founding Fathers!
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I was thinking a bit more about the timing. Politically it stinks–two months ago would have been much better. However, obstetrically and interpersonally, a delay in the announcement is good (as Judith Martin puts it, wait until other people are about to announce your pregnancy to you). It bought the daughter two months of privacy. Of course, she could have had even more privacy had her mom not taken the VP slot.
I think one of the things going on here is that some people like the idea that evil conservative Christian folk stone unwed mothers, and there’s a lot of disapppointment when no stoning is forthcoming.
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“… some people like the idea that evil conservative Christian folk stone unwed mothers, and there’s a lot of disapppointment when no stoning is forthcoming.” Eyes rolling.
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Lau-RA! Will you stop with the eyes? It’s ok if you’re a Republican. It’s only Democrats who get stoned.
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Oh please. Nobody is looking for a stoning. They are looking for consistency and reasonableness from people who oppose birth control education and push one of the dumbest policies that I can imagine: “abstinence only.” Do we need better evidence of how little that “works”?
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RCinProv,
We could all be eye-deep in condoms, and teenagers would still be getting pregnant. Teenagers have a hard time thinking about future consequences of present activities or judging the riskiness of their actions. A lot of them cut class, ditch homework, drink heavily, drive too fast, etc. On my blog, I keep a running log of “Darwin award nominees” (not winners, fortunately) that I’ve seen around a college campus. In the course of 2-3 weeks, I’m up to five. I think I’ve seen two people texting on a bike, and one guy rollerblading helmetless between cars in heavy traffic (check that blindspot!). The last two were two college guys. One was on a bike, the other was on a skateboard, and one was holding onto the other and they were rolling down the middle of the lane on the wrong side of the street. Helmetless, naturally. How well do you suppose these people’s birth control decision-making process works, especially when gripped by desire and muddled by alcohol? The only contraceptive/STD preventor that would work would have to be something that they didn’t have to think about at all. “Education” has limited impact on people with no judgment. Alcohol and substance abuse prevention programs, for instance, have perenially disappointing results.
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Amy P: All of what you’ve said is precisely why “abstinence only” education — a favorite of the GOP — is a stupid policy that is doomed to failure. I wonder why none of them seem to see that? Maybe you can explain it to them.
And the undergrads here are rolling in condoms, and almost none of them get pregnant. So making birth control available does have effects — effects the GOP opposes. Why is that?!
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“And the undergrads here are rolling in condoms, and almost none of them get pregnant.”
Do you know that, or do they just have abortions or transfer or drop out?
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Almost nobody drops out or transfers away from my institution. I’m sure there are abortions. But there is also widespread availability and use of condoms–or so I’m told. And our students talk about these things.
Now, why does the GOP push the failed policy on abstinence, and why do they oppose making birth control avaialble to all those teens who act in just the way you describe?! That is what makes no sense in all of this; and it make less sense today coming from Sarah Palin. Capiche?
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We’re going way off topic here, but I was just googling to see what Palin’s position was on birth control and it all seems rather vague. Some sites said she was in favor of it; others said she was against. She’s going to have to go on record with some policies soon.
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If this can go on while she is the govenor of a state with 1/2 the population of Brooklyn, what is going to go on in her White House? Sorry, but there are SO MANY better candidates out there for a VP that this has to be recognized. FAMILY VALUES is a KEY component of the GOP policy. McCain=divorced. Palin=bad mom.
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Well, I’m just flabbergasted. My most immediate response is that I hate it when any bit of a ridiculous conspiracy story is proven true, and Bristol’s pregnancy does that. Aargh. Honestly, aren’t there any no-drama no soap opera people around. Maybe he should have picked me — I’m squeaky clean and so is my husband, and family (of course, I’m a left-wing, liberal, almost socialist, athiest, so probably wouldn’t work for them).
And, one effect of the news is that I’ve ended up having a long discussion with my 7*** year old daughter about teenage pregnancy and why, one might not be prepared to have a baby at 17. Why? Because she saw the headline on the online NY times web site and asked. The guided discussion had her coming up with 1) you should have a job so that you will have money to feed the baby 2) it is much easier if you have a parenting partner 3) it would be nice to have an education 4) you’ll miss out on a lot of fun. Specifically, her 17 year-old cousin just took classes on being a lifeguard, something kind of hard to do when you’re pregnant. She pointed out that her cousin is a boy, and so he can’t be pregnant. We said, yeah, and that’s one of the things that makes it even harder for a girl, ’cause a boy might be able to take life guard lessons (or ride his bike or scuba dive) even if he’s pregnant. But, a girl won’t.
I’m not exactly sure if I appreciate the VP candidate’s family giving me this chance for a teaching moment or not.
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RCinProv,
As Laura points out, we don’t know a lot about SP’s position on birth control or (I’d add) what kind of sex ed BP had at her school and at home. For that matter, we don’t know much about BP, what her plans were for herself before all this, or what kind of kid she is. And I don’t think it’s my business to inquire too deeply into any of this. Asking SP her position on sex ed or birth control clinics in school is a different deal, although that would make more sense if she were running for school board. I believe there tends to be a lot of local control over that type of thing.
As a parent (particularly of younger kids), I think it very unwise to presume that I know exactly how some other parent has gone wrong. The teenage years are famously difficult, and there are lots of places to go off the tracks between then and adulthood–quit school, get addicted to prescription drugs, acquire abusive boyfriend, acquire manipulative needy stalker girlfriend, get an eating disorder, start cutting, drunk drive, molest younger siblings, be a seventh year freshman, run up five-figure credit card debt in college, commit cut-and-paste plagiarism, commit rape, attempt suicide, sneak into pool and drown, become paralyzed from the neck down, etc. If BP manages to avoid all or nearly all the items on my list, she’ll be doing pretty well.
With regard to your institution, the fact that there are few drop outs and transfers suggests that it’s upper tier, and that there would be an unusually high proportion of organized, future-oriented kids with good impulse control from upper-middle class homes.
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Amy, I’ve made NO presumptions about “how some other parent has gone wrong” and I have said nothing about that! You have changed the subject and avoided answering my clear question about the lunancy of abstinence only as an approach to teen sex. The GOP–the party that Palin now represents at the highest levels–is firmly on record for abstinence only. If she is going to break with the party on this issue, I’ll stand corrected. But meanwhile, I have heard no argument defending this idotic policy, which for some reason you refuse to engage.
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“organized, future-oriented kids with good impulse control from upper-middle class homes.”
and, I guess, that’s not Sarah Palin’s household, in spite of the governorship, the college education, or the family of teachers?
(that’s not what I believe — I believe that future-oriented girls from upper-middle class don’t have any better “impulse control” than anyone else. What they do have is access to both birth control and abortion. those things mean that no one drops out or transfers or disappears from our elite schools, not better “impusle control”)
(and, I’d rather my 17 year old run up a five figure debt in college or commit plagiarism than become pregnant at 17. not sure where I rank the others but their up there with becoming a mother — though perhaps not with becoming pregnant, since I think she would have the right to choose not to become a mother).
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bj,
Here’s an Ann Althouse quote that I thought you might appreciate:
“Oh, that looks like a meme. Sarah Palin must stay home with her special needs baby. Sarah Palin must stay home with her about-to-be-married, pregnant daughter. Ladies: Put your career on hold until everything in you’re family stops happening.”
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“upper-middle class homes.”
“and, I guess, that’s not Sarah Palin’s household, in spite of the governorship, the college education, or the family of teachers?”
Nope. The Palins don’t come off as a culturally upper-middle class family, although SP has picked up some polish over the years. We’ve already discussed her undergraduate career. I don’t know what her husband did in the oil industry, but with the data I have (for instance the commercial fishing boat), the family seems like an interesting hybrid of blue collar and white collar. That’s a lot of what makes SP such an exotic at the national political level, but what makes her seem very familiar and downhome to a lot of conservatives. It’s as if your little sister were governor and got tapped to be VP. I don’t know if she’s up to it, but theoretically it would be nice if the upper reaches of American political life weren’t confined to graduates of two or three undergraduate institutions.
Actually remembering to use birth control is a form of “impulse control.”
I think you underestimate the gravity of the debt issue and how deeply kids can despair over relatively small amounts of debt. When I was in school, a recent graduate I knew felt absolutely crushed by the $10,000 in credit card debt he’d run up in the course of getting his degree, and in the the documentary Maxed Out, the filmmakers interview the mothers of two college kids who (in separate incidents) killed themselves over $10,000 in debt, one doing so with the bills spread out on his bed.
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Oh come on. A 5 figure debt might be devastating, but, I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that becoming the mother was the most, absolutely most, life altering experience I’ve ever had. It changed the fabric of every single aspect of my life. That’s what Bristol is looking forward to now. And, she gets to do it, joy oh joy, in the public eye, with people like you and me using it as the case for our discussion, for our teaching moments, and to explore our own ideas about what it all means.
I’ve never said Palin should have stayed home with her special needs kid (though I thought she would have thought she had enough on her plate). I do think that what’s happening to Bristol right now (not to mention that poor unborn child, who is going to grow up one day to read all of this) is something I would have gone to great lengths to avoid for my own daughter (who, hopefully, will never be in that position).
If I had been a McCain supporter, I would have been devastated at the timing that has resulted in this being the top story of the first day of the Republican Convention. I continue to keep my fingers cross for the no-drama part of Obama.
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bj,
I didn’t quote AA to be argumentative, but because I thought you might like her formulation. I’ve noticed some people seem to think SP ought to be babysitting her pregnant about-to-be-married daughter, just as others (or maybe the same people) seem to forget that Trig has a father.
RCinProv,
I didn’t respond to that because I don’t know the ins and outs of abstinence education, or how it differs from what local school districts would normally provide in schools. Personally, I don’t know that it’s possible to have effective sex education outside a philosophical community with a shared Weltanschauung (however you say that) and without education on love, family, children, parenting, and marriage. If abstinence education is just “don’t have sex, kids!” of course it doesn’t work. Among other things, one has to offer a positive vision of what chastity means, and it helps to think of chastity as being for everybody, rather than just something we inflict on the kids. On a more abstract level, it means seeing persons as persons, rather than as disposable objects or as tools for pleasure. (My husband teaches a college class on love now and then, so I hear a lot about this stuff.)
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Speaking of sex education, did anybody else get the film where the boy going through puberty asks the zoo keeper about sex?
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I’m a confirmed contrarian, perhaps. Having a child at 17 (18?) isn’t the end of the world. I know a number of women who have full and rich lives, who started families earlier than the urban, college-educated bourgeoisie do. The young woman’s brother enlisted in the armed forces at 18, so it may be that the Palin children like to go their own way at a young age.
Practically, I do hope we have a female president. When we do, it will be a woman who worked while her children were infants, as the average maternity leave is something like six weeks in this country.
The mothers of severe special needs children I know are more likely to be in the workforce than not. Many are probably driven by the need to provide an economic cushion for their children’s future well being.
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“Speaking of sex education, did anybody else get the film where the boy going through puberty asks the zoo keeper about sex?”
No, but I wonder what all these viewings of “Blue Planet” is doing to my kids. Just yesterday, the kids were watching it and I heard my older child pointing out sperm (from some sea critter) to her younger brother.
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It’s hard to know exactly what you are teaching kids. Here’s Instapundit’s story of his daughter’s sex ed class:
“My daughter, meanwhile, got one of those robot babies — I think it was called “Baby Think Twice” or something like that — that wakes up and cries and has to be fed, changed, etc, and produces a printout of how well you did. But although it’s clearly intended to make motherhood look less appealing, she liked it and, like several of her friends, said it made her want a baby more. Gulp.”
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” If abstinence education is just “don’t have sex, kids!” of course it doesn’t work. Among other things, one has to offer a positive vision of what chastity means, and it helps to think of chastity as being for everybody, rather than just something we inflict on the kids.”
So, that’s not something that Palin doesn’t believe in teaching her children? or it’s OK if you fail with 33%
I’ll admit that this particular incident is starting to push my buttons because I abhor rules, principles which are widely ignored/broken. I had the insight a while ago that there are those who would rather hold a principle they break half the time than admit that they actually don’t hold that principle. That philosophy goes against my fundamental philosophy, which is to think through which few things are important to you and then hold yourself to that standard. I don’t want my 17 you (I don’t have one) having sex. But, if she is I don’t want to pretend she’s not, and then “forgive” her for her “sins” once the truth can’t be hidden anymore.
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Neither of us have any idea what the Palins tell their kids, either way.
“I’ll admit that this particular incident is starting to push my buttons because I abhor rules, principles which are widely ignored/broken.”
There we get down to a philosophical difference. I’d point out that the most important moral rules are the most broken in ordinary life:
1. Tell the truth.
2. Forgive.
3. Love.
I’m probably missing something important, but I can’t say enough against the idea that we need to lower our standards to the level of our actual performance. 50% is an awfully good average for the hard stuff. If you have an unspeakable in-law and you forgive that person half the time, you’re doing really well.
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Nothing ugly about questioning the common sense of a women who is leaking amniotic fluid (which generally indicates that you are in labor) carrying a special needs child who has a condition known to carry other health risks – getting on an airplane for several hours in order to give birth in her home state.
Great – her doctor approved – perhaps some of the medical associations should think of yanking his credentials (or at least his name should be put up on a quack board). I trickled during one of my labors and forty-five minutes later I was holding a baby (I was denied an epidural and was only in the good room for forty minutes). Most women do not take those chances – it may show a hard core individualistic streak – but it shows an incredible lack of judgement on her part. And no, in this case, you can’t put up well if it was a man arguement.
Second of all, I really don’t think it is her daughter’s child – because if it was – well – than our country won’t have to watch any reality tv anymore.
As far as Trig goes – I give Mrs. Palin credit. One of my pregnancies was a Trisomy 16 – which never goes to completion – and after that we were always worried about what if we ever had to face it on a deeper level. We chose based on what quality of life this potential child could have – with Down’s being a keeper. But, as my sister-in-law the ped’s ICU doctor has told me – some children born with severe genetic conditions do nothing but suffer incredible pain for their unusually short lives. As a doctor, it is her job to treat the daily emergencies – but it is a horrible thing to watch these children suffer incredibly and die. It is not as clear cut as anyone makes it to be. In the end, we had a child with neurological difficulties that no test could have predicted. I wish the right would stop focusing on her strength to keep the child – and perhaps demand more support (and funding) for all the familes with special needs children.
As far as the pregnant daughter goes – that unfortunately is a fact of rural life. But I think it was wrong to make the statement that she would be marrying a young self-confessed redneck who does not want to have children (his My Space). No 17 year old boy should be getting married – regardless if Bristol is the love of his life or not.
It does bring into question the efficacy of her abstinence only sex education programs – and how they don’t work. Her daughter has unwittingly become the poster child for these policies.
And as far as wondering if she can do the job because of all these litle family stresses, John Edwards (before his own scandal) was also questioned to whether he would be capable of running due to his wife’s terminal illness. Her families troubles – and how a special needs child and a teenage pregnant daughter will affect any person’s ability – is a fair question to ask – especially whne her child leaves the baby stage and is going to need her more and more (as any special needs mother can tell you). These are not sexist questions – just the reality of that messy thing called life.
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Speaking of sex ed, a reader wrote in to Nordlinger of NRO with the following comment:
“Interesting that when John Edwards’s and Jesse Jackson’s ‘troubles’ came to light, nobody asked whether they were employing proper birth-control techniques, and, if not, why not. Those questions are reserved for the daughters of female candidates”
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We need to clarify here. Enough with the vague passive voice statement. The Obama campaign, Democrats and liberals in general aren’t asking questions about the birth-control techniques of a 17 year old. It’s a few wingnuts on the Internet. Don’t make me roll my eyes again, missy.
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“The Obama campaign, Democrats and liberals in general aren’t asking questions about the birth-control techniques of a 17 year old. It’s a few wingnuts on the Internet.”
Laura,
1. You’re misusing the term “wingnut.” On the internet, wingnuts are crazy right-wingers and moonbats are crazy left-wingers.
2. I didn’t suggest that the Obama campaign was involved. I’m talking about what people are doing on the internet, and it is quite incorrect to say that “a few” people are sticking their noses into BP’s usage or non-usage of contraceptives. That’s exactly what RCinProv and a lot of other people (including some on TV) have been trying to do–to blame BP’s pregnancy on SP’s parenting and her policies on abstinence education. Whatever those might actually turn out to be. I personally suspect that very little has changed on the local level over the past few years, no matter what the programs are called. Lots of parents never were very excited about “comprehensive” sex ed, and back when I was in 9th grade (back in the big hair days), our health teacher lamented that because of administration pressure that he’d had to stop doing the condom-on-banana bit that he used to. Sex ed is an old and very contentious issue.
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Amy P — I really disagree. I expect conservatives to be compassionate and forgiving to the pregnant child when this sort of things happens. But it is inconsistent of them to be compassionate and forgiving to the parents of that pregnant child who, according to their “parents should take responsibility for raising their children right” view, should take responsibility and admit that they have screwed up. I suppose that the inconsistency shouldn’t be disappointing, because at least they are getting something right. But when it is glaring, refusal to interrogate one’s own standing beliefs is a form of moral irresponsibility.
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The whole episode is astonishing.
I know Lawyers, Guns, and Money went downhill ages ago, but when you have a blog run by political science professors mocking the myspace page of an 18-year-old kid who did nothing to them other than have (possibly) unprotected sex that they find politically useful, I’m left wondering if I’ll ever be as disgusted by politics as I am right now.
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Siobhan,
Who created this whole mess? McCain did. This is his choice; this is what he wants us to be talking about (if we are to believe his campaign’s line that there are “no surprises” here, that they had fully vetted Palin). Either that, or he is an incompetent. Take your pick.
Amy,
What would the conservative Republican narrative have been if it were Barak Obama’s daughter who was pregnant? Could we have relied upon a forgiving response, or would we have been subjected to Bill Bennett wagging his finger and discoursing on virtue and the decline of the Black family?
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Amy P, you are a liar. I have not said one word to support the aspect of this sentence that mentions SP’s parenting:
That’s exactly what RCinProv and a lot of other people (including some on TV) have been trying to do–to blame BP’s pregnancy on SP’s parenting and her policies on abstinence education.
I guess all that stuff about truth only counts in your family. You are lying on the Internet and I take very strong objection to your misrepsentations of my posts that made it clear that I was doing no such thing.
Shame on you!
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Honestly, I’m disgusted by politics right now, too. But, it’s ’cause the folks seem to have changed it into a reality show (not that that’s never happened before).
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p.s. Could my comment at 8:35 yesteray have been any clearer, when you first tried this sleazy and outrageous tactic: “Amy, I’ve made NO presumptions about ‘how some other parent has gone wrong’ and I have said nothing about that!”
You are misrepresenting my posts in such a grotesque fashion that you should look long and hard at your behavior. “Tell the truth,” my ass.
You owe me an apology.
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RCinProv,
I am not impressed with your style of discourse.
harry b,
“But it is inconsistent of them to be compassionate and forgiving to the parents of that pregnant child who, according to their “parents should take responsibility for raising their children right” view, should take responsibility and admit that they have screwed up.”
That’s interesting–who exactly holds that view? I’ve been all around the conservative internet, and the most frequently held view looks a lot like the one shared by Dale Price at dprice.blogspot.com:
“News flash: Dedicated Christian parents who love and are loved by their children have seen those children go astray, despite their best efforts. Be it drugs, sex, smoking, violent behavior, booze or flat out abandonment of religion, we’ve seen it happen. And we’ve seen it happen to good parents who did their best. Sure, some pharasaical jerks will get on their high horses. But most of us will sympathize and pray we and ours can avoid the same problems.”
Any parent with moderately good powers of observation knows that it isn’t over until it’s over, and you can’t really say how your kids have turned out until your dying day.
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The Obama campaign, Democrats and liberals in general aren’t asking questions about the birth-control techniques of a 17 year old. It’s a few wingnuts on the Internet.
CNN, ABC, CBS & NYT have all featured stories linking her daughter’s pregnancy with Sarah Palin’s views on abstinence education.
Here’s part of the transcript from Monday on CNN:
Let’s go ahead and talk about the pregnancy here of Bristol Palin. And what we’ve been able to find out, and certain individuals that we’ve been able to talk to, just to talk more about where the Governor stands, actually on sex, teenage pregnancy, sex before marriage, and issues that she has gone on the record with. Strong opinions. And what is now happening within her family
Seeing as how every recent poll I’ve seen shows journalists vote Democrat over Republican by a wide margin, I’d conclude that many of those behind these stories are Democrat &/or liberal &/or Obama supporters.
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So, is there somewhere where Republicans/Conservatives are talking about the convention, and their plans for November?
There is a convention, right?
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I am not impressed with your style of discourse.
Ah yes, tell lies and misrepresent people’s posts and then object to the “style of discourse” when they point that out.
I don’t care if you are “impressed.” You are a shameless liar, who smears people and then tries to change the subject. End of story.
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RCinProv,
I’m still not impressed.
harry b,
I was thinking just now that I was painting things a bit too dark. On the one hand, even good parents don’t know half of what their “good” kids are up to. On the other hand, where there’s life there’s hope. Not to go too much into the details, but one of my young relatives ought to be dead by now at least 10 times. But she isn’t, and she’s making steps toward sobriety, and someday she’ll have something resembling a normal life.
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Amy P: Who said you would be impressed? And why is that the issue?
You misrepresented my posts–twice. You claimed I said something I never said, and now you refuse to take responsibility for your misrepresentations. You obviously do not understand what it means to “tell the truth.” You are, for all to see, a shameless liar.
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Tex – Amy was making it out that liberals were laughing at the poor judgment of a 17 year old. That they were taking glee in a conservative girl’s fall. They’re not. We all know that kids screw up. I feel really bad for this poor girl for having this enormous burden and for having a mother who went into national politics knowing this would happen.
However, it’s absolutely fair and proper to discuss Gov. Palin’s position on abstinence education and its obvious short comings. Other inconsistencies between doctrine and practice, such as parental responsibility for a kid’s failures, are also fair game.
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“However, it’s absolutely fair and proper to discuss Gov. Palin’s position on abstinence education and its obvious short comings.”
The problem with this is that (as I’ve already mentioned repeatedly), we have no idea what the Palins told their kids about sex.
“Other inconsistencies between doctrine and practice, such as parental responsibility for a kid’s failures, are also fair game.”
You and Harry B have both mentioned this, but I have yet to see a source on it. Does anyone have quotes from SP saying that if a kid screws up, it’s the parents’ fault?
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Amy, I don’t care about what the Palins told their daughter about sex. I do care what her position is on abstinence education in schools. That’s a political position and absolutely up for debate.
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Amy, look, would it kill you to say something like, “A politician who argues on behalf of a policy of abstinence education in schools ought to have a somewhat reflective or introspective response to her own child having a teenage pregnancy”?
I think that’s all covered under “tell the truth” and even “forgive”. Telling the truth isn’t just, “My daughter is pregnant”. In fact, in public terms, that doesn’t really matter at all, and I think most liberals and McCain opponents are content that it not matter at all. What should matter, at least a little, is whether a private event should raise questions about a public doctrine for the person who advocates that doctrine.
Questions. Like, “maybe there’s a conversation to be had about this policy which previously I’ve preached as an absolute certainty, something beyond discussion”. Now that really would be an advance for us as a nation, if we sat down and asked, “Why are we concerned, in the end, about young people having sex? Is it pregnancy? Sex itself? If we’re right to be concerned, what does it mean that a lot of our children don’t share those concerns, regardless of how we talk to them in private and regardless of how we direct policy at them?” But you’re so busy spinning and deflecting and inferring attacks that aren’t even there and repeating passive-voice talking points that there’s no opening to anything like that. Nor, in all likelihood, will there be from Palin and her party at the moment. Because apparently issues like teenage pregnancy, birth control, and sexuality are only public policy when you can use them to attack your enemies, and intensely private matters when it’s your own family and domestic life.
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However, it’s absolutely fair and proper to discuss Gov. Palin’s position on abstinence education and its obvious short comings.
I agree.
However, I don’t understand how these two views are consistent:
Other inconsistencies between doctrine and practice, such as parental responsibility for a kid’s failures, are also fair game.
And
Amy, I don’t care about what the Palins told their daughter about sex.
If the media is going to delve into Palin’s responsibility for her kid’s “failures” as a way to examine inconsistencies between doctrine and practice, then they will want to know if she prohibited birth control and other such personal matters. Bringing in a candidate’s minor children into a discussion like this is unprecedented in political journalism, I believe.
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If Obama espouses critical pedagogy and other such Ayers promulgated practices in our public schools, then I want to know what his two daughters are learning in school and some details of their academic progress. I see this as analogous to what’s playing out with Palin’s daughter.
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Democrats HAVE been criticized for choosing private schools for their own children while opposing school choice for others. I view this as different from the Palin situation because these criticisms do not focus on the children’s individual behaviors and outcomes. And, while this may be of no importance to some, it certainly doesn’t get into personal matters such as the details of a teenager’s birth control methods.
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TB,
We’re talking about an extremely uneven playing field here. On the one hand, we’ve got the Palins, their daughter, their pro-life values, and the baby that she is keeping. On the other hand, we have all the other legislators and other high officials who, faced with similar circumstances, drove across town, paid a few hundred bucks and made the problem go away. As I mentioned upthread, unless we are prepared to violate people’s privacy and track down information on every congressman whose daughter got an abortion and study their parental missteps in detail, going over the Palins’ parenting with a microscope seems a bit unfair.
As you yourself say:
“Because apparently issues like teenage pregnancy, birth control, and sexuality are only public policy when you can use them to attack your enemies, and intensely private matters when it’s your own family and domestic life.”
As Tex says, this level of inquiry into the Palins’ kids is unprecedented. I’m starting to get nostalgic for the 90s, when the press obediently created a bubble of privacy for the president’s and the VP’s kids. An environment is being created where no one who cares about their minor children will even think about entering politics.
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One more thing: I’d like to mention how grateful I am that my two kids are young enough to still watch Elmo.
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You know what? I’m prepared to have private what people, including politicians, do with their families. Which means, for example, a pro-choice position. The moment you’re not pro-choice, you’re not in favor of families making private decisions that should be kept private. So how about it, Amy? Or are you just in favor of keeping choice private when it’s a choice you approve of? I think this is part of the problem: the whole rhetoric you’re copping IS a rhetoric of choice and privacy, in a context where you’re defending a politician who is publically in favor of not allowing other families to make private choices.
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By the way, Tex and Amy, you’re really masters at trying to change the subject of a conversation. This more than anything is what frustrates me about a lot of self-described conservatives, at least when it comes to the notion that American conservatism is about being accountable, about standing up for your own conduct, about not using society or the government as an alibi, about being individually responsible. Being reflective about social and political issues, or trying to hold the people you support to tough standards, or trying to open conversations, feels like a chump’s game in the face of that kind of Janus-faced declaration. Accountable–but let’s talk about someone but us. No alibis–but let’s talk about somebody else’s issues. Responsible–but it’s none of your business. Reflective? Never.
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Palin released the statement about her daughter. She said it was a response to the rumor by Kos and group, but an equal response would have been – “Trig is my child, end of story” or “It’s none of your business.”
I think her motherhood,and her daughter’s impending motherhood are what she is running on right now. A very big deal was made by the McCain camp about her being not just a woman, but a mother and a pro-life mother. They asked for the attention, maybe not the scruitny, but for sure the attention. From what I see, the evangelical right is eating it up.
It’s a distraction. Now no one is focusing on the real issues, or McCain. It’s all these little arguments that in the end don’t mean a damn thing about how the country is run, and McCain’s camp started it. My guess is they are jumping up and down to get the press coverage they claim they’ve been denied.
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Hilzoy of Obsidian Wings says:
“As far as I’m concerned, it’s fair game to consider Sarah Palin’s statements about her daughter’s decision, and to compare them to her own views about abortion. That’s a story about whether or not Sarah Palin sticks to her beliefs when they affect her own family, not about her daughter. But it is not fair game to use her daughter, or any of her kids, as pawns in a political argument. To my mind, this extends to using her daughter as evidence that abstinence-only education doesn’t work: presumably, no one thinks that it works 100% of the time, and that’s the only claim to which this one counterexample could possibly be relevant. (That’s why God created large-scale studies.)”
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Lisa V,
Amen sister! This is not about Palin. It is about McCain. But I think it has backfired, from a political-tactical point of view. All the talk about babies that he has unleashed has distracted from their core message. His impulsive, unthinking decision to push Palin onto the national stage when she was obviously not ready (and by that I mean in substantive public policy terms) just because of her anti-choice ideology and apparent (but only apparent because it is falling apart under closer scrutiny) reformist credentials, has blow up in his face. Have you seen the cover of US Weekly? This thing is not going away. Upon further reflection, I do blame Palin for one aspect of all of this: she chose to drag her daughter into the glare of the most intense media spotlight in the world. Did she really think this was going to be all sweetness and light? Bottom line: the Palin’s should have their privacy. But they should keep themselves private and not hold up their babies as symbols of their superior conservative ideology. I don’t care about their personal lives. It’s John McCain’s bizarre judgment that pisses me off…
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Great. A new topic. What does the choice of Palin say about McCain? I’m closing comments here and starting a new post.
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For some reason I cannot fathom, I have a subscription to US (and by cannot fathom, I actually mean I do not know how I got the subscription or why a copy of the “magazine” arrives in my mail). We’re a family that can’t help reading stuff (my daughter started reading the goldfish cracker box when I took away her book at meal time today). But, the US always makes me feel a soiled, like I really know things I’d rather not know, about people I don’t know. Who is Lauren Conrad, anyway?.
Palin’s issue (for real?) is going to fly off the shelves.
(BTW, I am not, definitely not, the US demographic)
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