A TX court ruled yesterday that the state had illegally seized up to 468 children from their homes at a polygamist ranch in West Texas. It’s a victory for inbreeding, sister-wives, recessive genetic diseases, 15 year old brides, inadequate education, 52 siblings, sack dresses, lost boys, and arranged marriages to old dudes.
It’s Cousin-Marrying Time!
Apt. 11d 
…and due process and legality and a defeat for guilt by association and bulk-rate justice.
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After reading about whole families separated 9 hours away, I actually agree with Amy, which rarely happens. This sect is totally gross, but better to have removed the MEN from that compound. seriously.
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I’m with Jen and Amy. I think we can find ways of dealing with the issue that do not involve separating these mothers from their children. Not only does it give me the willies, but it obviously is fostering the sense of persecution these women have, which contributes to the connection they feel to FLDS, which will do a better job of “taking care of them,” in their eyes.
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Add me to agreeing with Amy P- I think you have this one wrong Laura. CPS is not God, and I can’t see where their actions have been any better than the unproved allegations that started this mess.
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“Not only does it give me the willies, but it obviously is fostering the sense of persecution these women have, which contributes to the connection they feel to FLDS, which will do a better job of “taking care of them,” in their eyes.”
That is a very good point.
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This is the thing, from everything I gather the intial phone call was a hoax. Over half of the teenagers that CPS said were underage wives, were not. Most of the tales of abuse that are recounted in the media are from books of women who have left polygamists years ago, none that I’ve read are from anyone there now. They have no real evidence other than the group’s general beliefs.
I’m not naive, I think there are probably some abusive things going on at that ranch. I wish CPS had some real proof before they stepped in.
Every family I’ve seen interviewed on the news has said they will do whatever they have to to gain back their children- including move away from the ranch.
Again, for some deeper background on Jeffs and the whole system, read Under The Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. Great book.
I really wonder if legalizing polygamy would help. There could be regulations and oversight, and perhaps families wouldn’t live underground and be so secretive.
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Legalizing polygamy??? Are we serious here???
Laura, early on when this whole YFZ thing began you talked of listening to hours of testimony that included allegations of beating children in order to keep the moms in line, and of “waterboarding babies”. Have those allegations held up?
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Jen- If the relationships were between consenting adults… yada, yada, yada. I think it’s weird and bizarre. But I do wonder if it were legal if the women and children would have more protection because they wouldn’t be forced to live in secret and underground. I’m not advocating for it, I’m pondering.
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Legalizing polygamy??? Are we serious here???
Why should the state be involved in the marriage business at all?
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Sarah,
The state should be involved in marriage because the family is sort of essential for the functioning of society.
As far as marrying your cousin goes, I have some cute cousins, but the point is moot now my cousins and I already married other people (people to whom we weren’t related until the marriage).
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From the rag-bag which is my memory, this factoid: in Japan, cousin marriage is not stigmatized, and the studies there show an average 7-point depression in IQ for the kids of those marriages. Half a standard deviation. The stuff from Britain now is showing a rough doubling of birth defects. Just saying.
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I’m with you, Laura. I think these women and their roles in enforcing the rape culture of their community have been given a pass in the public eye because they’re white, conservative, submissive, and dress modestly. They look like “good mothers”. It’s both sad and terrifying.
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“I think these women and their roles in enforcing the rape culture of their community…”
So when do the arrests and prosecutions start of the guilty parties? Isn’t it grossly irresponsible to leave a bunch of rapists on the loose a convenient drive from the Mexican border?
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The state should be involved in marriage because the family is sort of essential for the functioning of society.
And the state’s involvement helps how?
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The Salt Lake City Tribune continues to be a good place to look for FLDS articles.
I was just looking at one entitled “Number of underage mothers claimed by Texas continues to dwindle.”
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9346914
The number of alleged pregnant minors and minor mothers has dwindled down to a handful, according to that article.
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Sarah,
Who should be recording marriages then? You just pick what you and your intended want and write-up an individualized contract?
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Yeah, MH, that’s what I want:
“You just pick what you and your intended want and write-up an individualized contract?”
Of course many of us might use a standard contract, but those of us who wish other contracts should feel free to do so. This would also solve the problem of folks getting upset because their idea of marriage isn’t mine. I think we’re rapidly moving to this solution anyway.
Age bugs me a lot in all of this, though. I don’t think sixteen year olds in our current society are ready to make these life-binding decisions
Dave: I’m also troubled by the effect or “inbreeding” (lots of data coming out showing that cousin marriages result in lower IQ, higher rates of certain birth defects, like clubfoot, and the horrifying stuff about a rare birth defect that’s pervading the FLDS community). As you mention, cousin marriage isn’t stigmatized in every society. In India, for example, there’s a tradition of a girl marrying a maternal uncle — it has the effect of creating multiple relationships between the maternal/paternal lines in a family (I think maybe the FLDS folks do something like this, too). But, those intermarriages clearly result in a higher birth defect rate; it’s well documented in Southern India.
But, knowing this doesn’t mean we can do anything about it, even though it will have significant social consequences. I mean, I guess we can forbid cousins from marrying, but can we forbid two people who both carry a rare recessive gene (Tay sachs, the gene in FLDS, . . . ) from marrying (and producing offspring)?
It’s a brave new world — both knowing about these genetic outcomes, and being able to ameliorate the effects of them (though not cure, and at great cost to society).
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Amy P, I at least do not consider the Salt Lake Tribune to be an impartial observer to this whole affair. Their early coverage was quite lop-sided.
What is everyone’s preferred source for news on this?
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jen,
The SLT does seem friendly to the FLDS. On the other hand, are they incorrect about the diminished number of minor mothers?
“The state alleged that 31 women ages 14 to 17 were pregnant, mothers or both, a count that included 26 mothers whose ages were disputed.
“As of noon Thursday, just eight mothers remained in the disputed category.
“And an attorney for one 14-year-old said Wednesday her client also is wrongly being listed among the 31 pregnant or mothering teenagers.
“The women declared adults on Thursday range in age from 20 to 24; a coming hearing would have shown one remaining disputed minor is 27.
“Attorney Kim Bridges, who represents Priscilla Zitting’s daughters, told Judge Barbara Walther Thursday she has never been able to get information on why the state deemed the mother a minor or why it had now changed its position about her status.
“The state listed Priscilla Zitting as “approximately 16” on one court filing for the status hearing, though it showed her correct 1988 birth year on a chart offered as evidence during a hearing before Walther in April.
“Adult status created a problem for the mothers, who are no longer eligible to remain in some shelters and face the prospect of being separated from their children who are older than 12 months.”
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The tail end of an An AP wire story (“CPS case ‘factually insufficient'”) over at gosanangelo.com supports the SLT story:
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/23/cps-case-factually-insufficient/
“Even before the Thursday appellate court ruling that placed its entire case in jeopardy, Texas Child Protective Services was losing ground in its case to keep custody of the hundreds of children taken from the polygamist sect’s YFZ Ranch.
“Half the young mothers put in foster care as children by Texas child welfare authorities have now been declared adults.
“Attorneys for Child Protective Services have been conceding, one by one, that many of the mothers authorities cited as evidence that the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints committed widespread sexual abuse of girls are actually adults.
“They have admitted 15 of the 31 mothers are adults, and one of them is actually 27.
“Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but the state has conceded she is not pregnant and does not have a child.”
I’ll add that the FLDS women are a pretty skinny bunch, the group has a traditional (lots of veggies, whole grains, etc.)rather than contemporary American diet, and I think it a pretty safe guess that the girls of the group tend to be late bloomers, so they’d tend to look younger than they actually are.
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Yeah, the Salt Lake Tribune has been incredibly bias on this whole case. Their so-called experts that they’ve been interviewing have clear prejudices. I’ve been reading AP, CNN online, Reuters. The NYT hasn’t had much.
There’s no question in my mind that abuse has gone on in that cult. I feel like I’ve said that already though and don’t feel like hashing out the case again. Just some political notes instead.
Appeals court judges in Texas are chosen via partisan elections. All of the judges in this case are Republicans.
CPS may have gone about this in all the wrong way, but the facts still remain that this cult maintains a highly toxic environment for children. I could be swayed by arguments that the environment is merely really bad rather than abusive. But I’m holding my ground at really bad. What I find distressing is the minimalization of the abusive/really bad environment. I think that conservatives have become so convinced that the government is out to get religious folks that they are embracing these freaks as their own. I just don’t get that.
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Actually, I think it is the “sister-wives” that raises the creep-meter most for me.
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Hi,
I would love to see your blog listed at HerBlogDirectory.com
thanks!
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“Appeals court judges in Texas are chosen via partisan elections. All of the judges in this case are Republicans.”
Does anybody know about the specific Texas law? Did CPS have a good legal case for holding on to the kids that was ignored by evil, partisan Republican judges, or was the evidence they presented insufficient? What is the usual time-line for child protective cases?
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Laura — I’m so with you on “really really bad and perhaps abusive environment” (with the balance depending on the individual. But, I might feel that way about isolated orthodox jews and the amish, too. I’m generally disturbed by any practice that isolates children from society. You seem to think the lines are really clear, but I don’t see it. That’s what the conservatives are worried about. Now, they don’t really have to worry about me, ’cause I think the lines have to be pretty clear before you can take kids away — I saw this as a matter of facts, and, apparently, Texas didn’t make a good enough case.
The sister-wives thing doesn’t creep me out at all. It’s not a choice I would make, but would I consider a woman clinically insane for making that choice — no way. As I’ve said before, I certainly wouldn’t take someone’s kid away because they let someone else sleep with their husband.
Amy — what I’ve seen of the Texas decision looks like they ruled on fact. They said that “environment” wasn’t enough, and they found too little evidence of individual harm. Unfortunately, even if there was individual harm, though, it would be hard to prove without the cooperation of the women.
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bj, I said I could be swayed from the abuse position to the really bad position. I might be swayed by a strong argument that underage marriage and boy dumping should not be put in the same camp as forced rape and pedophilia. Though I just can’t imagine someone convincing me that a 14 year old kid could make a real choice about marriage. If Carolyn Jessop’s allegations of water torture of babies was a widespread practice, then I’m back in the abuse camp. Anyhow, there is a spectrum between abusive and really bad, and the FDLS case falls somewhere in there.
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