More interesting discussion about religion and politics by Russell Arben Fox and the Crooked Timber gang. What concessions should be made in the Democratic platform to make it more appealing to the red states?
Truthfully, I had to take a breather from the computer and election analysis yesterday. It was all starting to get to me. I read too many “the end times are here” blog posts, and I needed to regroup.
I am very worried that the election results reflect a culture war rather than policy differences about morality. We could probably find a resolution to the gay marriage issue. We could have different policies across the states or just call it a civil union. But was this vote more about anger at those who don’t attend church regularly, who seem to have airs, who went to a private school?
The Bush and Kerry voters also seem to possess diametrically opposite views of reality. Something like 95% of Bush voters thought that economy was going great, and 90% of Kerry voters thought that the economy was in the toilet.
If there are such larger differences between the center and the coasts of our country, then there are no compromises and no solutions.
I might be wrong. I hope I am.
[Portions of the original post were deleted. This morning, I took red America’s vote for Bush too personally. The resentment and hatred for the coastal states documented in recent articles rattled me.]
Apt. 11d 
Speaking as a church-going, PhD, retired educator from Iowa, I feel your pain. I am surrounded by people who think differently than I do – including family members. I have a very hard time relating to their way of thinking and I can almost guarantee they would say the same about me. It’s hard for discussions not to get personal because so much of our differences are about core beliefs. I worry about the divide in our country and can’t imagine how it will heal.
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I think they think of liberals as “the other”. They don’t put a face on us as their family, friends and neighbors, people they have relationships with every day. I think we need to come out as liberals. Let people know we aren’t scary people, but people sitting next to them in church, helping them put the groceries in the car in the supermarket, leading their kids in scouts. I think we all need to wear a “proud liberal” t-shirt.
PS I do realize that I referred to a whole group of diverse people as “they”- I mean no disrespect.
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Well, sophistication and intellectualism are not the problem, though maybe modern art and sushi are š
No, really….when you wonder if the red states are against your sophistication and intellectualism, you are insulting us. You imply that we don’t have any of that, and can only be jealous of your choices. While it’s the issues that divide us, it’s rhetoric like that which actually gets the negative emotions flowing. I can imagine the response those around me might have: “She thinks she’s better than us because she eats _raw fish_?” Obviously your argument is not as simplistic as that, but the implication is there for people to zero in on.
At least in my area (central Iowa), the issues really are what is important.
By the way, I really enjoyed the work and family conference!
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Misty has it right. Wondering if ‘they’ the red staters don’t like you because you are sophisticated and intellectual, implies that ‘they’ are not.
It also raises the question that you don’t like them or think they are stupid or think that their views and concerns are not worth serious attention. I don’t think that is your intent or meaning, but as Misty noted, it can be seized upon as a source of resentment.
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Point well taken. I shouldn’t have used the word sophistication, because it implies betterness.
But my point still holds. I do think that there are cultural differences between the red and blue states that may have influenced a vote for Bush as much as his views on gay marriage. Hey, I say “viva la difference,” but these differences have led to insecurities, hypersensitivity, and prejudice (on both sides).
And Northeast professors seem to be especially hated. Don’t tell me that those resentments aren’t there, because I’ve seen it all over the blogs. And feel it whenever I travel out of the area. Sorry, but it makes me uncomfortable.
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I think the easiest way to communicate with someone is by using their own epistemology. If we effectively shifted the conversation from the Ten Commandments to the “Sermon on the Mount,” we might make some headway in finding common ground.
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As an athiest, the red staters are among my worst nightmares: people who don’t view freedom of religion as everyone’s right to live without their own moral framework as long as they don’t harm others, but rather people for whom freedom of religion means freedom if you are religious…
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It’s not simply about religion and guns.
Seventy years of nostalgia for the New Deal and successors in the same vein have run their course.
Those public policies have failed.
Add “bad economics” to “irreligious” and “tone deaf on cultural decay.”
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There is vitriol, condescension and contempt on both sides. I don’t know that Northeast professors are especially hated. I was more warmly welcomed as a Yankee in the south than I have been as a midwesterner in New York. Actually, I’ve been more warmly welcomed as an American in Paris (this year) than as a midwesterner in NY one year ago.
How do you think people in the midwest feel about Matthew Yglesias’s site with the map of Jesusland? Or Timothy Burke’s post about how those awful people will deserve whatever they get?
The “Bush=Hitler” and “US=Nazis” crap pushed me away from the Democrats this year. I am disgusted with the Bush administration. (What happened to small government? Why does Rumsfeld still have a job?) But, I couldn’t take the Democrats seriously this year when their supporters spout this rhetoric. The response to my question to a campaigner(from Moveon) on the streets was to scream at me through a bullhorn.
I asked what he thought the root cause of terrorism is, and how we should address it. I consider this a serious issue that should be addressed, not necessarily the way the Bush administration is doing it. This kid stuck a bullhorn in my FACE and SCREAMED “NAZI”. This didn’t happen AFTER I argued about their position – this was the ONLY answer I was given to the question.
See the link below for an excellent explanation of why so many people voted for Bush. She details why I could not vote for Kerry. I couldn’t bring myself to hold my nose and vote for Bush either. I voted for Badnarik & look forward to an ideological war within the Republican party. (Go Arlen Specter.) The Democrats used to provide balance & a solid opposition. They took positions that I didn’t always like, but that made me think about my own positions & that could be debated. This year I get the impression from many of the blogs that anyone who disagrees with the democrats is a stupid, hypocritical, fundamentalist bigot, especially if they live in “Jesusland”.
http://fromasadamerican.blogspot.com/2004/11/how-you-could-have-had-my-vote.html
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Perhaps you should think about where this rhetoric comes from. It comes from the incredible fear and pain we feel at being labelled the hated “other.” Ann Coulter thinks we should be all killed. How is that not a Nazi-like position? Yes, the answer always was: but nobody serious on the right takes her seriously. Is that true? How come she is not repudiated by those in power? Don’t they benefit from her vitriol, and when do they speak out against it?
I am a somewhat secular liberal professor, and I am tired of being demonized by the right. Tired and angry of being told I am evil, or simply nothing (that we should have our heads stamped on by boots, now that we are down and out following the election, I read somewhere). Perhaps you should see that anger as a reaction to the hatred and anger we are being shown.
Before this election, I felt like a Cassandra with my husband and others. They never took the right seriously. Now they do, and so might the 25% of gays that voted for Bush (look at the exit polls). If the court starts to swing, more and more will turn. If you choose not to swing against this in a constructive way (i.e., voting for the libertarian party), that’s your choice, but don’t expect me not to be ANGRY at the part of the country that HATES ME & HATES REASON.
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“I might be wrong. I hope I am.”
As the man said, “Get used to disappointment.” Bush has been unimaginably awful, but they like him. Either they think he’s right, in which case we don’t share the same values, or they think he represents a decent compromise, in which case I don’t trust their judgment.
We have to shore up support in MN, WI, MI, reclaim it OH and IA, and do a deal with a couple of the Western states (I like NV, CO, and maybe NM). Until at least after the 2006 election, the name of the game is consolidation.
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Sarah — Regional mistrust is a two way street. And there is intolerance everywhere.
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Laura, I’ve been reading these entries and agree with a lot of them, but I’m proposing a different analysis of what happened than anything I’ve read elsewhere. I work from a writer’s point of view, and while I echo some of the statements here, I think there are some angles to the entry that some of your readers might like to discuss. (Probably here, as my readership is more writer-based.) The entry is at http://electricmist.net and the specific date is Nov. 6th. I’ve linked back to one of your entries in the article.
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“Wondering if ‘they’ the red staters don’t like you because you are sophisticated and intellectual, implies that ‘they’ are not.”
How about, “the red staters don’t like you because you value sophistication and intellectualism, and they don’t.” That would eliminate the idea of smart/not smart and get to the core–what is valued by the different groups
I found Timothy Burke’s comments on his blog to be extremely interesting (waves hi since I know he reads here) as well as this post on DailyKos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/7/2421/07447 .
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I still don’t regret saying that the Bush majority will in some sense be responsible for the consequences of their actions, given my certainty that there will be negative consequences. Isn’t personal responsibility for one’s actions a red-state value as well as a blue-state one? Nothing has changed my passionate but reasoned certainty that this was a very poor choice, and if it is definitionally condescension to believe that one is correct in one’s assessment of events and others are incorrect, then we are all condescending to one another in plenitude at the moment, on all sides.
I think the general drift of my writing before and after the election has been to take very seriously the authenticity and legitimacy of religious and social conservatism.
It would be a big mistake, in that context, to say, “Red-staters don’t like us because we’re intelligent.” That truly is insulting. But it might be fair to say, “They don’t like us because we are associated with intellectualism”, because intellectuals are a particular social class with very particular cultural and social practices. Intelligence is found everywhere (as well as stupidity), but the cultural and social rituals that come with the expression of intellectual life are highly particular and fairly “blue-state”. Intellectuals, I hasten to add, are not necessarily or maybe even commonly intelligent, something that I think is being amply demonstrated by some of the sillier kinds of teeth-gnashing to be found out there right now.
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Tim writes: They don’t like us because we are associated with intellectualism”, because intellectuals are a particular social class with very particular cultural and social practices. ntelligence is found everywhere (as well as stupidity), but the cultural and social rituals that come with the expression of intellectual life are highly particular and fairly “blue-state”.
Agreed, Tim. That was the intent of my original post. I deleted it, because I wasn’t sure that arguing this point was politically advantageous. Either red staters would point to many people they know who appreciate academics or they would deride us for being wimps.
Who cares what others think about us? Let’s try to convince them why our arguments are sound.
Also, to play devil’s advocate for a moment, I sometimes appreciate a little distrust of academics. Questioning authority is always healthy.
Toni: Nice post. You understand the campaign process very well. Of course, I think that “not Bush” was a fine reason to vote for Kerry.
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